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Old 01-20-2007, 04:27 AM   #96
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
As to "how are we to assume {Eru} is moral", it is not an assumption we make; rather, it is a necessary logical conclusion. If Eru is creator of all things, and not moral, then morality cannot be part of his creation. If it is not part of his creation, then it can only have preceded him. If it preceded him, it necessarily has to have created him, for if he is not first, then something had to create him; and morality would therefore be superior to him; and this is of course an impossibility, since it is at odds with what Tolkien wrote. Therefore, Eru must be the creator of morality; and since this must be so, morality necessarily exists according to the nature of Eru.
Eru is moral. He is also immoral. Eru is everything and everything springs from him. Eru is good, Eru is evil. If Eru is indeed omnipotent, if he is indeed the beginning and end (as Tolkien says he is) then he must have created everything. And in fact Tolkien says so. Again:

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no theme may be played that does not have its uttermost source in me
Where, precisely, could concepts of evil or immorality have come from if they did not come from Eru? These are parts of his being. But who decides which things are immoral, which things are moral. Eru does. And isn't he still omnipotent? Then where do the rules come from which force Eru to choose which things are so? Nowhere. Eru chooses, and he can choose as he sees fit at any time, that's the nature of omnipotence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
If this were true, then Eru has no basis by which to condemn Morgoth to the Void, except pure whim. This does violence to the inner consistency of reality Tolkien built into his cosmos/mythos, and therefore cannot be accurate.
Eru had no part in this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
Such determinism is not reflected in the text. Melkor had choices and made wrong ones. Eru created him to have the greatest potential of all, and Melkor fell to pride and lust for dominion outside the will of Eru. On what account, then, would one feel sorry for Melkor?
Who gave Melkor those choices? Who created the potential for pride and lust? Where did they come from? Eru cannot be 'everything' if there are outside forces at work putting concepts of pride and lust about, he instantly loses his omnipotence and Authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
I have already answered the contention that evil comes from Eru. To summarize again, the text indicates that this is not so. 'Evil being a part of Eru's plan' must be understood in this context. Thus, evil may be permitted to exist (or else Eru does violence to the very freedom with which he has created the Ainur), but Eru's introduction of the 2nd & 3rd themes indicates that he works against evil. Eru is declaring that evil cannot undo his purpose; rather, Eru makes of Morgoth's evil a tool "in the devising of things more wonderful..."
Then where does it come from if not from Eru? There is not a twin creator somewhere unless you want to head down the path of some of my mad ramblings about Ungoliant. Better to stick with what Tolkien says in the books and he says that everything has its source in him. Even Free Will must be a construct by Eru. And Tolkien says something about Free Will and the Valar:

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For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him along; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Ilúvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur.
The Children are 'other than themselves, strange and free'? Is this the point at which Eru actually creates Free Will, namely he gives it to the Children but not to the Valar? This is a bit of a revelation! The Valar learn something new looking at this vision, the possibility that you can act outside of Eru's intentions, which tells us that previously they had been acting within his intentions. Therefore Melkor could indeed have been bidden to act the way that he did. And remember when Eru tells him that he has still to learn some of the secrets of his thought, obviously things in his mind that even Melkor, a being in existence, does not know, things placed there that only Eru knows about. That's further backed up by the fact that nothing in the music can be played unless it has its source in Eru. It seems that Eru created evil, and probably to be 'tributary to glory'. He wanted Darkness and Light both. And that underlines the idea of The Long Defeat.

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But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfillment of their labour for ever, and Earth should wither ere it flowered. And Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here no less than thou.' And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart.
It seems to me that Melkor's crime is in not being willing to share. He wants all of Arda for himself and does not want to share the Darkness with the Light, which is where he prompts strife. And an important note to remember is that Eru is not here at this time, the Valar are outside of him and now are earthbound. Eru is not in charge. Manwe knows of Eru's second theme however, and he has to manage that. The second theme, which was one of Eru's intentions for Arda, is that the Valar shall work together - Melkor can have some of Arda to mould (note what it says in the text about how Melkor creates cold and hence snow and ice, which are terrible, but are in the end beautiful also - an example of how his 'evil' is in the end tributary to the glory and a necessary part of it all) but he cannot have it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
It is a little much to say that the Valar forced Eru to make a move. By laying down their guardianship they submitted to the authority of their Master. He acted as He had planned from the beginning, as the Ainulindalë shows: "Ilúvatar called together the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent." This indicates that Eru's will was at work throughout the whole Theme, which is to say that his will was at work throughout the entire history of Arda, including the events of the Akallabêth as well as the War of the Ring.
I believe that the Valar simply could not act against the wishes of Men in Numenor. Note what I found above about the seemingly unique free will that the Children possess. The Valar are of a fundamentally different nature and so had to appeal to the father of the Children to do something. Note also the difference here in dealing with situations. When the Valar's help was sought to deal with Melkor they could and did do something as they were acting against a being of their own nature but they fundamentally could not do anything against Children not of their nature. In the Akallabeth it also tells us something about individual Children and how their nature simply cannot be altered except for the half-Elven where Eru has delegated Authority to the Valar in enabling them to become mortal or not; pure blood Men and Elves, the Valar are forbidden from altering.
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