[Raynor]

I'm not sure exactly what you are arguing as far as 'evil' children are concerned.

Even if you didn't understand my point, that doesn't justify that sort of distortion of my arguments.

I am asking if it is worth living as an instrument of evil.

You see, I'm stepping back from that one, 'cos that last point is just too wierd.

Whatever. You tried your best shot with a letter that didn't address the issue at cause. I guess we should move on.

No parent would wish their child to grow up to do evil, but no parent would wish to see their child killed.

So do you rennounce the choice? Do you expect Eru to rennounce the choice?

Eru took away the Numenoreans' free will when he killed them, because in assaulting Valinor they were exercising said free will.

I don't see why you feign to miss my point. Free will has consequences; if those consequences are dire enough, the person in question should be stopped from perpetrating evil anymore. Free will doesn't exclude morality , responsibility and authority. This is common sense.

on the subject of why children like the 'cruel' punishments meted out to villains in many traditional tales

I only saw they like justice. Where exactly is it said that children like "cruel" punishments?

The 'Valar are responsible but its not really their fault' ( or TVARBINRTF) version is certainly easier to stomach than the 'Eru is responsible & it really is his fault' (or EIR&IRIHF) version

I really don't see that much of a difference in both variants. In both cases, it was the power and designs of Eru at play. Neither situaion excludes the cooperation of Eru and the Valar, considering that at the heart of the world lies the imperishable flame and, on the other hand, "but this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs". We don't know exactly how Eru operates, in general, or in this particular case.

we 'grown-ups' would perhaps choose TVARBINRTF (Cock-up), where it was all an accident?

How could it be an accident?? How can you sink an island by mistake? If they really wanted to protect the numenoreans, why did they save, by their grace, only the faithfuls? Where is there a sign of the plan of changing the world overstepping its initial objectives?

We're still going on as though Numenor was destroyed because of many things that were not the cause of its destruction, e.g. following Sauron, being cruel to inhabitants of Middle-earth, not 'following' Eru

That Eru was supplicated by the valar to intervene doesn't mean he is forbidden to consider the situation of the Numenoreans more generraly, considering what was at stake by not doing so.

I think the crucial point is that we are not being told by Tolkien to accept the downfall of Numenor as 'good', or even as 'just'.

Does any character in LotR or Silmarillion call this unjust? Obviously, other than the targeted numenoreans.

And then there is davem's point - is Eru actually a very well crafted god figure anyway?

So, what is the standard of a very well crafted god figure? If we are at it. I see the repeated dodging my question about what tools do we have for adequately describing a transcendent reality. Perhaps because doing so is, well, impossible. But don't hold your ideas .

Then I suppose you might think that we should also ban Hallowe'en, fancy dress parties and all games involving dress-up and make believe?

I am truly perplexed. How can you derive that from my statement?? I just said I like Warcraft orcs, if you read it again.

Any mother would let her child live and see what happened. That's what parents do. They do it because love is more powerful than 'morality'.

Ok, I am growing uncomfortable myself with this line of reasoning, so I will change it. The problem is the value of individual damned lives, and not only to themselves, but in the greater scheme of things, esspecially when weighed against other lives (the numenoreans slew each other in madness), and esspecially more innocent lives (those who were sacrificied, most of whom were faithfuls). All the more, love has an object, but can the initial object of love be recognised in a Ringwraith (three were numenoreans), a Mouth of Sauron, a Necromancer, Black Numenorean (all these were or may have been numenoreans), orc (a possibility under Sauron too)? If we are to judge Eru, we are to walk in his shoes and take this extremely delicate position.