[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lal

Sauron wouldn't care for such matters if he got that particular trinket. And Orcs would not be above a little lying - maybe a tall tale about an almighty struggle would only add to the glory. And even if Sauron did decide he was going to punish the "smug returning Orc with prize" for his disobedience, then that Orc wouldn't know that, he would assume he could easily get away with a small lie about something which happened in an out of the way corner of Mordor. Ultimately, Sauron wouldn't care:

Well, while we are at discussing orcs... I think there are way too many risks for an orc to undertake all these risks, with little chance of any reward in sight. As you say, Sauron doesn't care about them. They would have to risk their lives in fighting comrades and their boss, then make it to Lugburz and bet that Sauron won't catch their lie and hope that Sauron won't become suspicious and not kill them, but actually reward them. I don't buy it. It is simpler to assume they wanted the shirt for themselves.

Originally Posted by Lal

The crucial point is why they leave him there and don't rescue him. Something to do with their understanding of Shelob, of not 'interfering'. She is intelligent and may seek revenge for her prey going missing? Leaving him there means one of them won't be eaten in turn? Anyway, what this suggests to me is that the Orcs are not always sporting.

I would say there is some sort of co-existence between Sauron and Shelob, and they recognize it and support it. However, it would have been more practical for them to save a comrade, esspecially if she forgot about him, and just bring something else there. But it may be that the whole perversity of the situation delighted them too much to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Lal

That's shockingly similar to what the Witch-King says to Eowyn, so it must be a very real threat, a real possibility. So the Orcs are very much 'whole' beings, and there is a possibility that their fea can be left naked and exposed

I doubt the witch-king has such a power. There would have been some account of it, somewhere, in Arnor or at the Pellenor Fields. I am sure he would have used it as a propaganda stunt. It looks like a "myth", a cursing threat, to demoralise those who would oppose him. And even if he had it, I have doubts we can't surmise from a threat only that orcs do actually have a soul; the way the orc says it, he might have experienced himself the cold look, and felt terrified - fear was the witch-king's (and the nagul)'s main weapon. And if one is left cold in the dark on the other side, then one cannot come back and relate the whole thing .

Originally Posted by Lal

The point is that Tolkien is possibly showing us there are different degrees of 'darkness', that even Orcs are frightened of something, even they are subject to the whims of the Nazgul and can be (and presumably sometimes are) hurt by them.

I agree.