The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

davem · 03-09-2007, 01:48 AM

I still think we have to step back & remember that we are dealing with a work of fantasy. One may like a character in a work of fiction even if that character does things which would be morally unnacceptable in real life. Morgoth is not (& never was) real - neither are Hobbits or Elves, Dwarves or Dragons. Hence we are dealing with fantasy figures doing 'nasty', 'immoral' things to other fantasy figures. Or to put it another way, words on a page.

To make moral judgements about another human being based on whether they like or admire a particular character is to cross a line. LotR is neither the Bible nor the Koran - it is not a divinely inspired book of Law intended for the moral guidance of humanity. Whatever the author's intention (or hope) may have been, it is for most readers an escapist fantasy.

One could argue that the Elves & most of the men are the kind of boring, self righteous prigs that needed (or at least provoked) the contempt of Morgoth. Indeed I would certainly argue that without the Enemy the story (& the world of Arda Unmarred itself) would have been so dull that no-one would have cared whether the good guys 'lived in bliss' forever.

The enemy are the ones who make the story interesting, exciting & worth reading. They are the source of the dynamism & power in the work. If there is an 'endless defeat' going on - ie an eternal battle - it is because if ever the good guys won the story would be dead in the water. Tolkien may not have liked that anymore than some posters here, but its true.

Bb's point is worth exploring because it seems to me that it is the case that the very undeveloped nature (in terms of description) of the enemy makes them more 'archetypal' & therefore more open to 'projection'. Their very 'undeveloped & unexplored' nature makes them more attractive in many ways than the Elves. They're interesting & therefore attractive because they're unknown, mysterious.

I think another aspect of their attractiveness is simply that one cannot help but feel a bit suspicious as to whether they are actually as 'bad' as they're painted - we don't, for intsance, have their side of the story - Thenamir has given us the Human-Elvish perspective on them, but is that the whole story? What, really, motivated Melkor's rebellion - we're basically told he decided to be 'bad', but we're not told why he made that decision. Maybe he heard the Theme & thought 'For Eru's sake! What is this bland, middle of the road pap we're being expected to play. This tune needs jazzing up a bit if its going to have a chance of getting to Number One.' And, as I said, if he hadn't 'jazzed it up' & added some beats it would have been a pretty dull gig ('Christian Rock' anyone??).

So, I can definitely see the attraction the evil characters hold for some readers - without them there would be no stories - or would anyone care to speculate on what kind of tales we'd have if there was no Melkorian rebellion, no Glaurung, no Sauron, no Ring, no Lord of the Nazgul for Eowyn to confront.

And that is the point - the Lord of the Nazgul is cool, & so is Eowyn's dispatching of him....

03-09-2007, 01:48 AM	#86
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I still think we have to step back & remember that we are dealing with a work of fantasy. One may like a character in a work of fiction even if that character does things which would be morally unnacceptable in real life. Morgoth is not (& never was) real - neither are Hobbits or Elves, Dwarves or Dragons. Hence we are dealing with fantasy figures doing 'nasty', 'immoral' things to other fantasy figures. Or to put it another way, words on a page. To make moral judgements about another human being based on whether they like or admire a particular character is to cross a line. LotR is neither the Bible nor the Koran - it is not a divinely inspired book of Law intended for the moral guidance of humanity. Whatever the author's intention (or hope) may have been, it is for most readers an escapist fantasy. One could argue that the Elves & most of the men are the kind of boring, self righteous prigs that needed (or at least provoked) the contempt of Morgoth. Indeed I would certainly argue that without the Enemy the story (& the world of Arda Unmarred itself) would have been so dull that no-one would have cared whether the good guys 'lived in bliss' forever. The enemy are the ones who make the story interesting, exciting & worth reading. They are the source of the dynamism & power in the work. If there is an 'endless defeat' going on - ie an eternal battle - it is because if ever the good guys won the story would be dead in the water. Tolkien may not have liked that anymore than some posters here, but its true. Bb's point is worth exploring because it seems to me that it is the case that the very undeveloped nature (in terms of description) of the enemy makes them more 'archetypal' & therefore more open to 'projection'. Their very 'undeveloped & unexplored' nature makes them more attractive in many ways than the Elves. They're interesting & therefore attractive because they're unknown, mysterious. I think another aspect of their attractiveness is simply that one cannot help but feel a bit suspicious as to whether they are actually as 'bad' as they're painted - we don't, for intsance, have their side of the story - Thenamir has given us the Human-Elvish perspective on them, but is that the whole story? What, really, motivated Melkor's rebellion - we're basically told he decided to be 'bad', but we're not told why he made that decision. Maybe he heard the Theme & thought 'For Eru's sake! What is this bland, middle of the road pap we're being expected to play. This tune needs jazzing up a bit if its going to have a chance of getting to Number One.' And, as I said, if he hadn't 'jazzed it up' & added some beats it would have been a pretty dull gig ('Christian Rock' anyone??). So, I can definitely see the attraction the evil characters hold for some readers - without them there would be no stories - or would anyone care to speculate on what kind of tales we'd have if there was no Melkorian rebellion, no Glaurung, no Sauron, no Ring, no Lord of the Nazgul for Eowyn to confront. And that is the point - the Lord of the Nazgul is cool, & so is Eowyn's dispatching of him.... __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."