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Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Well my country doesn't execute either murderers or the mentally ill  ..theoretically it could execute a traitor, I believe...
For me Gandalf's words, were a factor in shaping my opinions on the death penalty, but given that ME is a world where capital punishment exists I will leave that to one side.
Gollum was tortured in Mordor - if he wsa "relatively unharmed" it was because he was so damaged already ...
You cannot punish people for things that they might do - well the state can't (to no doubt misquote PJ O'Rourke in "Parliament of Whores", "the supreme court can not punish you for having a smart look on your face - which is the difference betwen having a judicial system and having a mother").
Gollum was after the Ring for himself so to that extent, I don't think he was consciously on an errrand for Sauron or his servant .
Gollum's "treachery" if such it was, was essential to the destruction of Sauron.
So I disgree with you other than that I do think, but from a very different perspective, that Gollum deserved his death - as a release from the terrible burden of his life and reunited with his Preciousssss |
I agree with everything Mithalwen says here. And for me too, Gandalf's words are very important to me in the Real World - together with the words of other wise men and women on this subject. I don't doubt Tolkien had his own experience of summary justice, having been in WWI where men, disturbed by what they had seen, deserted and refused to fight or simply went mad; instead of being cared for and receiving counselling they were seen as Traitors and shot at dawn. Even today, almost 100 years later, few of them have had any kid of pardon. Ask any ex-serviceman about this and they will shake their heads at the injustice and inhumanity of it all.
And it's interesting to note how many traitors there are in Tolkien's work and what 'judgement' is dealt to them - sometimes it is harsh judgement, sometimes there is no judgement. As Morwen says, Gandalf is also kindly with Saruman who is a much bigger traitor than Gollum. Ultimately, in Tolkien's world, it is not the 'place' of Hobbits or Men or Elves or Dwarves or even Wizards to mete out Judgement. We see those who are kindly and who show mercy and pity being revered for their actions whereas those who 'judge' harshly are not painted in this light. Aragorn allows his Men to desert on the way to the Black Gate, he gives the Oathbreakers a chance, Frodo pities Gollum and stays Sam's angry hand, the Ents allow Saruman to walk free, etc. etc. Being merciful is most definitely an act of 'taking the moral high ground' in Tolkien's world. Being judgemental is not.
What did Gollum do though? The only 'crime' we know for sure that he engaged in was to kill his brother for the Ring. Who else did he kill? Orcs, to eat. Was that wrong? The tales about his eating children are just that - tales! Gollum is the classic 'bogeyman' attracting legends and folklore to his reputation, the twisted, shrivelled Hobbit of your nightmares. But what was he really? What drove him? He wanted his Precious - he didn't want to kill for the fun of it, for the kick, he killed and schemed and lied in order to get his Precious back. That puts any judgement of him into a whole different arena I'm afraid.
It's like the story of the Allied soldiers locking the guards of Belsen in a room and then kicking them to death. As soon as something extreme like that happens all normal sense of 'right and wrong' goes flying out of the window. Not for me the job of being a lawyer on a War Crimes tribunal! And that's what Tolkien is telling us, the Readers, through Gandalf's words. He says "while you're sitting in your comfortable armchair, reading about 'crimes' and misdemeanours, can you
really know the full story? And if you
did know the full story, do you really think it would make 'judgement' any easier?" He tells us that no matter how much we discuss and think about this 'Matter Of Gollum', there are no answers.
There was in the end to be nobody to 'judge' Gollum. He died. In the pursuit of the Ring, this object that had made him who he was, a thing he could not live peacefully without, but a thing which could not be allowed to continue existing anyway. He died reunited with his love, the thing which had destroyed him. And just to add to the perfection of this ending, he died saving Middle-earth as nobody else was going to destroy it.
So rather than asking if Gollum ought to have been executed, maybe we ought to be asking if he was ultimately Middle-earth's ultimate martyr?
