[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Tut tut Mr Sauce. Now, would that really hold up in court? I think not. :P

Well, if we are going to apply courtroom standards, then there might be some doubt as to whether Gollum actually murdered Deagol. After all, there is a suggestion that Gandalf extracted his confession under duress.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Those are Tolkien;s only intentions - as a great artist might merely 'suggest' something with paint he does it with words and it's up to you how you see things like that.

I disagree. Tolkien's purpose (or, to exclude any C-thread style debate ( ), one of his purposes) is to tell us, his readers, a story. In doing so, he relays certain events to us. Some of those he intends us to take as fact. In my view, this is one such event.

Why would Gandalf seek to influence Frodo's impression of Gollum with tales of infant cannibalism if he did not himself believe them to be true? If Gandalf considered them to be mere Woodsman gossip, it would be highly irresponsible for him to colour Frodo's opinion of Gollum in this way. The same applies with regard to the impression that Tolkien gives to his readers of Gollum. We are meant to believe that Gollum carries out these awful deeds. And, when we meet him, we are meant nevertheless to pity him. This, in my view, is where the subtlety lies in Tolkien's characterisation of Gollum.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Most of all, we're not heeding Gandalf's warning not to be too hasty to come to judgements that are beyond our ken.

Hang on. I would say that we are perfectly entitled to form a view as to what Gollum did and whether such things were right or wrong. The point that Gandalf (and Tolkien) was making was that Frodo (and we, the readers) should not be hasty in dealing out death in judgment. In other words, whatever view we might come to as to the rights and wrongs of Gollum's deeds, we should not be so hasty as to condemn him to death for them. That said, had one of the Woodsman caught Gollum in the act, as it were, one might understand if he were to have put an axe through the wretched creature's neck.