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Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-05-2007, 06:37 AM

OK, I can't help myself, but I'm going to throw another faggot on the fire here and raise the interesting (to me at least) point of significant differences bewteen the Sagas and Tolkien's tales.

The first thing that comes to mind is the bickering. There's plenty of it in Middle-earth to be sure--and by bickering I don't mean open warfare or the ongoing struggle between good and evil, I mean people arguing with one another endlessly, sometimes letting these arguments get out of hand. In the Sagas such bickering almost inevitably leads to real conflict with someone taking offense, feeling as though his pride or honour has been hurt, doing some killing and then we have a blood feud. In Middle-earth this kind of escalation is relatively rare as, inevitably, someone is able to step in and make peace. In the ON these attempts are always there but they always fail. In M-E these attempts usually work out (Gimli and Legolas become fast friends, for example, instead of trying to kill one another; Frodo is able to keep Gollum and Sam from hurting one another). It makes me consider how in Middle-earth the concept of "honour" is oddly absent. Yes, people do honourable things, but they are not willing to immediately hack off someone's head if they are insulted by them. Compare this to a scene relatively common in the Sagas:

Western Icelander: Your grandfather cheated our family when you sold us that lame pig!

Eastern Icelander: Your grandfather dropped the pig on the way home!

Friendly Icelander: Now now, let's just forget about all that...

Western Icelander (to Eastern Icelander): I hear that the Sninafal Troll uses you as his woman every night!*

Eastern Icelander: That's it! I'm getting my axe!

(*This is an actual insult in some of the Sagas...)

Another big difference is in the notion of heroic action. There are numerous times in the Sagas when a hero behaves in a way that one of Tolkien's heroes never would. My favourite example is Grettir. When he hears of a farmer who is being terrorised by Vikings he says that he'll help the farmer for a price. The farmer agrees and when the Vikings next show up Grettir greets them invites them into the barn then shuts them in and burns them alive. He then collects the reward from the farmer and sails away in the Vikings' ship leaving the farmer without a barn and 12 burned corpses to contend with. Aragorn he ain't.

So despite my earlier post saying that I find the notion of northern heroism to be prevalent in Middle-earth, I think I might have to amend that. "Naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat" is there, but (what we would consider) silly hang-ups over matters of honour are not, nor are (to our minds) dubious tactics. So while Frodo and Aragorn are "Icelandic" in some ways I think that they are significantly, well, something else as well. And on this point I refer you back to Hookbill's excellent post and his salient reminder that there are many different ingredients at work in the "cauldron of story" that is Middle-earth...

07-05-2007, 06:37 AM	#39
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	OK, I can't help myself, but I'm going to throw another faggot on the fire here and raise the interesting (to me at least) point of significant differences bewteen the Sagas and Tolkien's tales. The first thing that comes to mind is the bickering. There's plenty of it in Middle-earth to be sure--and by bickering I don't mean open warfare or the ongoing struggle between good and evil, I mean people arguing with one another endlessly, sometimes letting these arguments get out of hand. In the Sagas such bickering almost inevitably leads to real conflict with someone taking offense, feeling as though his pride or honour has been hurt, doing some killing and then we have a blood feud. In Middle-earth this kind of escalation is relatively rare as, inevitably, someone is able to step in and make peace. In the ON these attempts are always there but they always fail. In M-E these attempts usually work out (Gimli and Legolas become fast friends, for example, instead of trying to kill one another; Frodo is able to keep Gollum and Sam from hurting one another). It makes me consider how in Middle-earth the concept of "honour" is oddly absent. Yes, people do honourable things, but they are not willing to immediately hack off someone's head if they are insulted by them. Compare this to a scene relatively common in the Sagas: Western Icelander: Your grandfather cheated our family when you sold us that lame pig! Eastern Icelander: Your grandfather dropped the pig on the way home! Friendly Icelander: Now now, let's just forget about all that... Western Icelander (to Eastern Icelander): I hear that the Sninafal Troll uses you as his woman every night!* Eastern Icelander: That's it! I'm getting my axe! (*This is an actual insult in some of the Sagas...) Another big difference is in the notion of heroic action. There are numerous times in the Sagas when a hero behaves in a way that one of Tolkien's heroes never would. My favourite example is Grettir. When he hears of a farmer who is being terrorised by Vikings he says that he'll help the farmer for a price. The farmer agrees and when the Vikings next show up Grettir greets them invites them into the barn then shuts them in and burns them alive. He then collects the reward from the farmer and sails away in the Vikings' ship leaving the farmer without a barn and 12 burned corpses to contend with. Aragorn he ain't. So despite my earlier post saying that I find the notion of northern heroism to be prevalent in Middle-earth, I think I might have to amend that. "Naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat" is there, but (what we would consider) silly hang-ups over matters of honour are not, nor are (to our minds) dubious tactics. So while Frodo and Aragorn are "Icelandic" in some ways I think that they are significantly, well, something else as well. And on this point I refer you back to Hookbill's excellent post and his salient reminder that there are many different ingredients at work in the "cauldron of story" that is Middle-earth... __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.