[Morwen]

Originally posted by Rune
The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

That is a point that you'll want to take up with William Cloud Hickli

Originally posted by William Cloud Hickli
And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention.

Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?

Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Originally posted by Macalaure
As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.