[Nogrod]

I must say I really approved of Bêthberry's point on Tolkien being the master deceiver in the first place - as well as Boro's points about Gandalf being a master as well.

But if we need to choose between the choices given to us by lmp I'd still say that the real choice is between Sauron and Wormtongue - even if I do appreciate now more some of the arguments made in favour of Saruman.

But in the end this sure is a question of a larger scale interpretation which is always open to doubt.

But let me just ask you "the defenders of Saruman" how on earth do you come to an outcome where Saruman is the most effective liar if he himself is completely fooled by Sauron?

Saruman thinks he has a chance to world domination and Sauron feeds his dreams to make him an auxiliary in his own war against the free races promising him might - and letting him believe he can be the master of his own destiny. Surely Saruman would have been disposable as soon as the time would have been ripe for it. But it was advantageous for Sauron to let Saruman to believe he was an independent player on the map who could have his own moves. So he was lured to be a pawn of Sauron. Now that I would call effective lying.

Yes Saruman was a maia but so was Sauron - and Gandalf. But who of them was the most powerful? It would be hard to see that even Gandalf in his post-death might would have dared to confront Sauron. He did fool Sauron with his plan of the two hobbits entering Mordor to destroy the ring but unfortunately Gandalf was not among the choices we had.

And btw. it's not very fruitful to discuss whether Saruman could have destroyed a whole island of the greatest civilisation on the the Middle-Earth like Sauron did by lying as he didn't do it. The question of the most effective liar handles things that happened, not what someone could have done...

Also I think Raynor is right in asking whether things before the LotR are to be taken into account as lmp's original question concerned the LotR.

I myself took account of things not in the LotR and thence admit having spoken of wrong things.

But still I'd say it's Sauron (I voted him indeed) or then Wormtongue if we think of the handicap he had in power...