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Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard
And why is this a great accomplishment? Gandalf had no reason to believe that Saruman had joined forces with Sauron, so he obviously believed Saruman wanted to talk with him, which Saruman did.
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Gandalf did not expect Saruman to imprison him; furthermore,
Boro's post most likely refers to Gandalf believing Saruman and his lies for over 160 years - together with the rest of the White Council.
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What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it.
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Saruman managed to have the White Council do his bidding; he even managed to play Sauron for a while,
after Sauron thought he had him in his hand.
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-Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him.
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Nor did Saruman expect Gandalf to do that.
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-Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence.
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I wouldn't downplay his works so easily; were it not for Gandalf
the White, Rohan would have been most likely lost.
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Originally Posted by Letter #156
Of course [Gandalf] remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman.
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-Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not.
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Then again, what matters in this thread is who is the most
effective liar. The Witch-king episode is a perfect example of that.
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Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements.
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As said previously, Saruman didn't buy Sauron's lies - quite the contrary. On the other hand, Sauron and his servants were mislead by Saruman. Another example of who was the most
effective liar.
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-Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings.
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Given their propensity towards Magic/Machine, a hobbit might have corrupted them
. They wanted to believe, they were one of the easiest preys.
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-Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race!
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I don't think there is conclusive evidence that he deceived them in person - thus he might have a split merit at best in this situation.
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-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.
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What do you mean?