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Old 11-30-2007, 11:43 AM   #32
Boromir88
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Quote:
I say Sauron because his lies were so effective it took the intervention of Iluvatar and a changing of the world.~Meriadoc
But by the 3rd Age (and well back into the 2nd) Sauron wasn't fooling anyone anymore. He had been 'figured out." He wasn't able to keep his "Necromancer" identity for long and the only people he managed to get on his side were the ones he bribed or intimidated. He tried to trick the dwarves into helping him, they wouldn't. The Elves, Gondorians, and Rohirrim weren't deceived by him anymore.

Sauron had lost his ability to put on a 'fair hue,' after the sinking of Numenor, so he no longer was deceiving anyone. He ruled (and 'grew' in power) with fear and bribery, not through deception.

Saruman relied solely on his cunning and his 'skillful voice' that corrupted your reasoning abilities. As Raynor pointed out Saruman had not only been fooling the White Council, and all of his allies, but for a time he was also fooling Sauron. I think we can see that in Gandalf's comment, which reminds me of the saying "you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar."

Quote:
"So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."~The Palantiri
Saruman was able to keep up a charade (I'm not good with years but I trust Raynor is correct when saying 160 years) for a long time. He was lying to the White Council, his allies, Sauron's servants, and even Sauron...and not just lying but able to keep it a secret for a long time. When he gets caught, he comes to the 'last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in.'

But, I would like to add, and I mentioned this earlier. Even after Saruman is figured out, and his voice began to 'lose its charm' he still has significant 'skill.' As he holds the Men of Rohan in a 'dream-like' state for a while, and he causes a seed of doubt to arise in Theoden's mind (after Theoden just told Saruman he was full of crap).

To me that takes some skill, when everyone knows you're a tricky, in it for yourself, liar and you are still able to weave in doubt, you are still able to corrupt? Once Sauron lost his ability to assume a fair form, he was figured out and wasn't fooling anyone. He had to go to intimidation and bribery. Saruman still kept up his game of lying (lying quite 'effectively' I might add) even after everyone knew he was a traitor.
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