The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

**lindil** · 05-12-2003, 10:47 PM

The trouble for Hurin [and thus his family] began when instead of holding his tounge against Morgoth he 'dares to mock him'.

Hurin spoke to Morgoth with pride and understandably defiance, but silence would have seved him better even though ti would have been less 'emotionally satisfying'.

But his especial flaunting of Morgoth's dissipation and ever-decreasing power, was I think foolish, even though true.

This was sure to provoke a contest of wills and power and Hurin was sure to lose.
And he did. And not just him, but ultimately his family, Gondolin, Doriath, Brethil and Nargothrond!

It all flowed from his feeling a need to defy Morgoth to his face.

As for Hurin's end I have always seen Melian's words [which I take as canon despite their secondary origin] to him opening his eyes and for a final moment softening his heart, as evidence of the 'light of Melian' and it's effects on the last part of his sopul still open to truth, but he willfully chose to leave Menegroth and Melian's influence and then was cast back into his old despair, and doubtless morgoth was aiding this from afar, so his suicide is like his son's, in knowledge of the truth but so crushed and pained by Morgoth's curse and it's devastating effects on all he has known that he is left with no hope. In a sad twist he forgets the very words of hope in the Valar he pridefully cast into Morgoth's teeth.

To me the narn/Hurin saga is the inverse of Beren and Luthien and the Ring.

In the latter, love and a humble sense of duty and true friendship and honor win the day and overcome impossible odds. But with the Narn pride and self-will rules at every critical juncture.

Morwen did not obey Hurin and flee right away. Turin did not follow Melian's nor mablung's nor Beleg's gracious advice in the Narn. Nor Gwindor's etc...

In a sense the Narn overtook the rest of the Simarillion in detail and scope and the rest never caught back up, we are left seeing most of the Narn in vivid detail, especially Hurin in Brethil where the tension, irony and palpability of Morgoth's curse becomes more visceral than anything else JRRT wrote.

So Hurin I think did cast himself into the sea, or perhaps just sat staring at it till he died and fell into it.

Because of his pride coupled with the curse, he could bnot simply ask Eru to forgive him his follies and betrayels of all he held dearest [Turgon especially]. Even his wrath at Brethil's supposed affront to Morwen was stronger than his desire to see her buried in a fitting manner, this is clearly shown in his confrontation with the Haldad.

------------

Great thread Lailath.

05-12-2003, 10:47 PM	#21
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	The trouble for Hurin [and thus his family] began when instead of holding his tounge against Morgoth he 'dares to mock him'. Hurin spoke to Morgoth with pride and understandably defiance, but silence would have seved him better even though ti would have been less 'emotionally satisfying'. But his especial flaunting of Morgoth's dissipation and ever-decreasing power, was I think foolish, even though true. This was sure to provoke a contest of wills and power and Hurin was sure to lose. And he did. And not just him, but ultimately his family, Gondolin, Doriath, Brethil and Nargothrond! It all flowed from his feeling a need to defy Morgoth to his face. As for Hurin's end I have always seen Melian's words [which I take as canon despite their secondary origin] to him opening his eyes and for a final moment softening his heart, as evidence of the 'light of Melian' and it's effects on the last part of his sopul still open to truth, but he willfully chose to leave Menegroth and Melian's influence and then was cast back into his old despair, and doubtless morgoth was aiding this from afar, so his suicide is like his son's, in knowledge of the truth but so crushed and pained by Morgoth's curse and it's devastating effects on all he has known that he is left with no hope. In a sad twist he forgets the very words of hope in the Valar he pridefully cast into Morgoth's teeth. To me the narn/Hurin saga is the inverse of Beren and Luthien and the Ring. In the latter, love and a humble sense of duty and true friendship and honor win the day and overcome impossible odds. But with the Narn pride and self-will rules at every critical juncture. Morwen did not obey Hurin and flee right away. Turin did not follow Melian's nor mablung's nor Beleg's gracious advice in the Narn. Nor Gwindor's etc... In a sense the Narn overtook the rest of the Simarillion in detail and scope and the rest never caught back up, we are left seeing most of the Narn in vivid detail, especially Hurin in Brethil where the tension, irony and palpability of Morgoth's curse becomes more visceral than anything else JRRT wrote. So Hurin I think did cast himself into the sea, or perhaps just sat staring at it till he died and fell into it. Because of his pride coupled with the curse, he could bnot simply ask Eru to forgive him his follies and betrayels of all he held dearest [Turgon especially]. Even his wrath at Brethil's supposed affront to Morwen was stronger than his desire to see her buried in a fitting manner, this is clearly shown in his confrontation with the Haldad. ------------ Great thread Lailath. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.