[Aiwendil]

davem wrote:

Isn't this what Hurin does with Morgoth? Defying Him in such a mocking, dismissive way. Hurin failed to take Morgoth seriously. There's a difference between refusing to bow down to evil, & being dismissive of it. Again, we come back to pride. Hurin seemed to believe that Morgoth couldn't do anything to break him or his family - if he even considered his family at that point. Hurin wasn't just putting himself at risk, he was putting his wife & children at the same or worse risk.

I still have a hard time believing that Morgoth cursed Hurin's family only as a result of Hurin's words to him. I think that even if Hurin had remained silent, Morgoth still would have uttered the curse; for what he was chiefly interested in was finding Gondolin - that is, breaking and torturing Hurin. And I certainly don't think that Hurin is somehow to be blamed for the curse, especially in any moral sense.

There does seem in the whole family this same trait, lack of thought for others. Turin returns to Dor Lomin without a thought of what the effect of his behaviour will be on his people. Turin & Hurin both place so much emphasis in their role as 'Lord', but seem not to consider the effect of their behaviour on their people.

I must disagree here too. Turin's actions very frequently are the result of thought for others - it's just that those actions usually go amiss. When he returns to Dor-lomin, he is doing because of what he perceives (as a result of Glaurung's spell) as a very real and imminent threat to his mother and sister. And he also has a real desire to free Dor-lomin from the Easterlings and liberate his people. As it happens, his return does cause some suffering to his people, but this was more a result of impulsive decision making and poor strategy than of a lack of caring for his people.

Findegil wrote:

I don't think it was only friendship. He loved Finduilas but denied the feeling out of allegiance to Gwindor. The motivation was just but the result was bad for all three.

I agree. Also, he did not wish to involve Finduilas with his curse. Obviously, he had done that anyway, without knowing it.

Morwen wrote:

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

That's true. But his decision to go to Dor-lomin was a particularly poor choice that, I think, he would not have made had it not been for Glaurung's spell.

It all comes back to what I said before, he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision. And Morgoth uses this weakness against him.

That's true.

Numenorean wrote:

At his core he is, I feel, essentially a good man who is waylaid and damned by the machinations of a dark 'God'.

I very much agree. Perhaps other people had different reactions, but I always felt throughout the Narn that Turin was very much a hero or protagonist and quite a sympathetic character.