Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
If we are understanding astrology to mean newspaper horoscopes and petty fortune-telling, then I agree, it's nothing like astronomy. And yet, both things are produced from the same impulse, and have essentially the same purpose. This is more obvious if you are operating in a classical or medieval cosmology (which is the worldview within which Middle-earth exists). Until the rise of modernity, astrology was NOT horoscopes and crystal balls. It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation. By observing the movements of the heavenly bodies, a careful, scientifically-minded astrologer could attain a superior knowledge of the way the universe works, and what's going on in it. This is science. Astronomers, until the modern era, WERE astrologers: Ptolemy, the Magi, Pythagoras, Galileo (seriously); and our "astronomy vs. astrology" question is indicative of the same materialism and rationalism that likes to make Galileo a martyr for science who was locked up by the superstitious Church for refusing to compromise his professional, scientific integrity.
So, my point is that in Middle-earth (being a land firmly grounded in a medieval worldview) wise men who studied the stars could be safely called either astrologers or astronomers with equal accuracy.
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If you read my post, you must know from there that I am aware of this. However, what I think, and in fact, what is the main purpose of this thread to find out, is, whether M-E REALLY saw stars as some kind of things that contain ANY information. Astronomy in M-E: yes, definitely. The people were looking at the skies, naming objects, this one is Nénar and this is Borgil, and the question posed at the very beginning of this thread is whether they also did other things (like looking what trajectory this and this stellar object follows); we agreed upon something. But I was looking for a proof whether astrology was in M-E as well, and that, if you read my posts above, concerns astrology in all that it means. My question was, DID the people in M-E really think this antic and medieval way as you say it? Did they think something about Eru's creation can be deciphered from the stars? "It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation," you say, yes, but was this "sensible notion" also in M-E? That is the question and surely you must have noticed I am aware of the fact astrology is not just horoscopes (don't know where you took crystal balls), if you read my posts (at least the opening one).