[The Saucepan Man]

On Hurin:

I found Hurin's fate, and his treatment at the hands of Morgoth, to be one of the most shocking and distressing episodes that I have read in the works of JRRT. Davem put it graphically, when he said:

He had been slowly destroyed at the hands of Morgoth for, what, over thirty years. His mind was virtually destroyed. He was seeing the world & events through Morgoth's eyes, & Morgoth's 'vision' was essentially so corrupted that he couldn't see objectively, even if he'd chosen to.

Not only that, but he was made to watch the systematic destruction of his entire family. I cannot imagine a worse fate. Made all the worse, for me, by the fact that his capture was brought about by his loyalty and sense of duty to his lord, Turgon. Death in so doing, as was Huor's fate, I can accept. But to have to undergo what Hurin went through, well it's just utterly horrific.

I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."

Absolutely. I find the general treatment of Men by Elves in the First Age to be petty reprehensible. They were certainly considered as "second class citizens", and often seen as no better than cannon fodder. The Fen of Serech is a classic example of that. Turgon seems to have no compunction about leaving Hurin and Huor, and their men, to almost certain death in order to save himself and his people. And the Elves are the ones whose fate on death was known ...

So, in response to Lalaith's original point:

To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife ... Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.

No, I cannot imagine that JRRT ever considered such a fate for him. On his death, his fea would no doubt have gone the (unknown) way of all Men, but he was rightly honoured as one of the greatest among them.

Hurin certainly did not deserve to suffer the way that he did, and it is thoroughly understandable to me that he should end in such despair. But, as Morwen Tindomerel quite rightly points out, he did, ultimately at least, achieve much by his (unimaginable) suffering:

Looking at it another way we might say that Hurin's long defiance bought Gondorlin thirty more years of existence, allowing his nephew Tuor to meet Turgon's daughter Idril and beget Earendil - without whom there would have been no host out of Valinor and no War of Wrath....

No, I cannot imagine that, however he ended his days, Hurin could possibly be damned after all he went through and considering the ultimate outcome of his actions.

On Turin:

Now, there seems to be a general view on this thread that Turin's character, albeit exascerbated by the curse of Morgoth, was the cause of his undoing. It is said that he was rash, hot-headed, unable to think through the consequences of his actions and insensitive to the needs and safety of others. Morwen, for example says that:

... he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision.

Similarly, Aiwendil says:

Indeed, he knows of the curse and is constantly struggling to escape it. It's just that he makes the wrong decisions toward that goal.

Now, while I agree that Turin does make some very poor choices, I also think that Aiwendil makes a very good point when she says:

... though the wrong choices are made, those wrong choices seem reasonable, or at least understandable.

I think that it is possible to see many of the Turin's decisions as entirely reasonable in light of the information before him. It is only with the benefit of hindsight, and being able to see the consequences of his actions, that we can see his choices as being the wrong ones. A good example is his strategy, while in Nargothrond, of taking the fight to Morgoth, rather than waiting for Morgoth's forces to smoke them out.

I think that Aiwendil, again, put it very well when she said:

The prime example of this ambiguity is in the tension between fate and free will that operates in the Narn. Nearly all of Turin's misfortunes seem, on the surface, to be solely the result of his own actions and choices … But we know that there is something else at work. We know that the tragedies in Turin's life are the result, in some way, of Morgoth's curse.

Turin may very well have made poor choices (and quite obviously did in some cases), but did he ever have any hope of making the right ones? Even had he made the correct choices, would the curse nevertheless have caught up with him?

This is, I think, is the great irony of the Tale of Turin Turambar and the Narn I Hin Hurin. Men are supposed to be masters of their own fate and yet Morgoth is able, by means of his curse on Hurin's family, to condemn his wife and children to a destiny governed by fate. Turin names himself the Master of his Fate but, in fact, he never has any hope of escaping it.

The physical manifestation of Morgoth's curse is apparent in Glaurung. Both Turin and Nienor are bewitched by the Dragon in such a way that their fate is placed in Morgoth's hands. But, even when Turin makes decisions free from Glaurung's influence, Morgoth's curse is, as Aiwendil said, at work, ensuring that each choice he makes is the wrong one and brings only death and hardship to those around him.

Yes, Turin did have some character failings. But he also had some great qualities. Courage, tactical nous, kindness and compassion (the latter most apparent from his treatment of Mim). He earns the deep friendhip of Beleg (one Elf who I would not categorise as being too "superior" in his treatment of Men) and the respect of others such as Thingol and Mablung. He also inspires loyalty in a band of cut-throat bandits and, through his influence, they not only become an effective and useful military unit but also, it seems, much nicer people to know.

No, I do not believe that the curse of Morgoth worked by playing on his character failings, for he was no worse in this regard (and, to my mind, probably a lot better) than many others. As I see it, the curse worked by ensuring that, whatever course of action he chose, it would be the wrong one. And this, of course, makes him appear to be someone who always makes the wrong choices.

For me, this is what makes his story so tragic. He struggles so hard to evade his fate and yet, as the reader becomes increasingly aware as his story progresses, it is ultimately all to no avail.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]