[The Saucepan Man]

I'm sorry I cannot agree.

Hehe, I knew this would stir things up. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tolkien himself says repeatedly that Men *are* the masters of their fates, just as plainly as he says Elves go to Mandos. We must therefore accept that as truth.

But that, for me, is precisely the tragedy of the Narn I Hin Hurin. Men are supposed to be masters of their own fate, but the children (and wife) of Hurin are prevented, as a result of Morgoth's curse, from enjoying that luxury.

But just because Men have the potential to master their fate doesn't mean they can do so automatically or without effort, an effort Turin never made.

But surely Turin made great efforts to evade his fate. The fact that he failed to so so does not invalidate those efforts. To me, it is more coincidental that every decision made by Turin, exercising free will, simply played into Morgoth's hands.

Now unless you're suggesting Morgoth was controlling their minds ... the House of Hurin *must* take some measure of responsibility for the damage they do to themselves and others.

It is clearly not a case of all decisions being wrong but of wrong decisions being made repeatedly and Morgoth taking full and malicious advantage of the fact.

This is where we get to the nub of it. Whether you believe that Morgoth took advantage of Turin's character failings, or whether you believe (as I do) that he was doomed whatever course of action he chose, the curse of Morgoth is still at work. Even if it is the uncontrolled passion with which he (sometimes) acts that is his undoing, the curse of Morgoth is still robbing him of his free will by ensuring that his natural instincts work to his detriment.

I wouldn't put it as Morgoth controlling his mind, any more than Mandos was controlling the minds of the Noldor as their fate played out. The curse was made, just as Mandos' prophecy was pronounced, and the paths of the protagonists were set. Yes, Turin, Morwen and Nienor had free will to an extent but, however they exercised their free will, their fate would catch up with them. In other words, their free will was delimited by the curse set upon them. Whether through the physical intervention of Morgoth's forces (in particular, the wonderfully malevolent Glaurung) or simply circumstances conspiring against them, the outcome was, unfortunately, unavoidable.

Melian by warning Turin to be wary of his passions was clearly indicating that these could be used against him. And that by mastering them he would also master the curse.

But there is clearly more at work here than simply uncontrolled passion on the part of Morwen, Turin and Nienor. Yes, a number of their actions are governed by uncontrolled emotions. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But, in the case of Hurin's family, those actions inevitably end in disaster. Morwen's decision to leave Doriath and search out her son, and Nienor's decision to folow her are good examples. In different circumstances, those choices might have resulted in a happy family reunion. But, circumstances conspire against them.

And, even had Turin followed Melian's advice and restricted his actions to the purely logical and rational, would he have been any better off? Turin frequently acts on a sensible and rational basis, particularly in his dealings with the outlaws and with Mim. And I cannot really fault the logic behind his strategy of open warfare, while at Nargothrond. And yet, ultimately, his decisions go awry all the same.

To believe anything else robs the House of Hurin of their Free Will, which Tolkien also frequently and emphatically affirms as central to the nature of the Children of Eru.

Yes, this is an issue with which I struggled while reading this fascinating thread. Being fully aware of the central theme of Men being masters of their fate, I tried in vain to see some way in which the tale of the children of Hurin might be seen as consistent with this. But whichever way I look at it, I see the curse of Morgoth as inevitably, and ultimately, robbing Hurin's family of the free will which should rightly have been theirs.

Perhaps the Narn I Hin Hurin is the excpetion that proves the rule. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]