[Numenorean]

Unless I misunderstand you Kuru (and it wouldn't be the first time [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) You seem to hold Turins tactics, strategy and mindset wholly responsible for the fall of Nargothrond?

“When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy.”

But are we forgetting a crucial factor of anothers free will here? Specifically the free will of the King of Nargothrond and his subjects at this time, Orodreth. He alone led his people, and at no time do I recall Turin seizing power from the King, he earnt his respect through military success and valour:
Silm. (P.253)

“So great was his prowess and skill in warfare on the confines of the Guarded Plain that he himself became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword”

and as a result:

“In the time that followed Turin grew high in favour with Orodreth”

Ok, so Turins idea of warfare differed from the Elves, but for a while it worked, and Orodreth had the power of command to lead Nargothrond whichever way he so desired. As we know he opted to follow Turins councils, so is it not then Orodreth who should ultimately be blamed, if blame is therefore being served? Without the order of the King, the Elves of Nargothrond may indeed have maintained their stealth & run tactics, for a while longer. The coming of Glaurung though was inevitable. Given his super-senses of eyesight, influence and awareness, I think that the Fall of Nargothrond, given the Doom of the Noldor, was also therefore fait accompli, whether Turin was there or not.
As to the power or extent thereof of Morgoths curse upon his victims, I found the following statements from Gwindor about Turin quite interesting:
Silm. (P.253)

A doom lies on him

and
Silm. (P.254)

...his right name is Turin son of Hurin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed. Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! Is it not written in me?

It seems that Gwindor is in no doubt that the power of the curse is very real and not to be underestimated. To me this ties in with what the Saucepan dude stated:

if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?

And Davem I agree with your claim about Morgoth that:

I don't much think he cared about destroying Turin & the rest of his family - that was just a good way of teaching Hurin a lesson & breaking his spirit

Morgoth was confident enough that through his power in the curse the family would inevitably be destroyed. If their 'free will' had been any kind of threat to the curse itself, he would surely have failed to ruin them all as utterly as he did.

[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]