[Kuruharan]

Ahhhh! My favorite time in the thread, when there are three different lines of discussion to keep track of...hee hee hee.

I see it as the product of rational thought rather than pure, uncontrolled emotion.

Well, there was some sort of thought that went into this. We may just have to agree to disagree on the degree to which each ingredient played a role in the decision. (I think that I may have just exceeded my quota for words in one sentence ending in "gree.") However, for me the strongest line of evidence is...

But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open... (emphasis mine)

Seems just a bit emotional.

But are we forgetting a crucial factor of anothers free will here? Specifically the free will of the King of Nargothrond and his subjects at this time, Orodreth. He alone led his people, and at no time do I recall Turin seizing power from the King, he earnt his respect through military success and valour....so is it not then Orodreth who should ultimately be blamed, if blame is therefore being served? Without the order of the King, the Elves of Nargothrond may indeed have maintained their stealth & run tactics, for a while longer.

This is certainly true. Orodreth bears a heavy part of the blame. However, the change in policy was Turin's idea, so he also bears a heavy part of the blame.

(Orodreth was not the brightest bulb on the porch.)

I think that the Fall of Nargothrond, given the Doom of the Noldor, was also therefore fait accompli, whether Turin was there or not.

Yes it was. I never believed that they could hold out indefinitely. They could have held out longer than they did and made a much greater bloody snarl of things.

But he was clearly ONLY interested in seeing Hurin's spirit broken, which is why he dealt with him as he did.

I think you are right in your point, to a certain degree. However, Morgoth was clearly interested in matters beyond breaking Hurin. He hated and feared Turgon because he believed that ruin would eventually come to him from Turgon. That in and of itself provides some other interests in the matter. Hurin knew where Turgon might be found, and Morgoth wanted to know that.

Precisely. If Turin's doom is brought about solely by choices based upon the exercise of free will, then the curse of Morgoth is superfluous. If, on the other hand, Morgoth's curse played some part in his downfall, then this represents a restriction on his free will, to the extent of the part played by the curse.

Perhaps it should not be looked on as a restriction so much as an encumbrance. It dragged him down and made it more likely that he would perform certain actions, but it did not keep him from doing something else.

that wretch Turgon

My Gracious...