[The Saucepan Man]

We may just have to agree to disagree on the degree to which each ingredient played a role in the decision.

Agreed. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The degree to which logic on the one hand and emotion on the other influenced the strategy adopted by Turin does not really affect my central point on the manner in which Morgoth’s curse operated.

And none of these bad choices can have been influenced by Morgoth since his power cannot reach into Doriath.

I see no reason why the curse of Morgoth, once pronounced, should not affect Hurin’s kin wherever they might be, even while they are in Doriath. It does not follow from the fact that Morgoth’s forces cannot physically enter, that the curse will be prevented from operating while they are there. Indeed, both Morwen and Nienor make decisions central to the ultimate outcome of the curse while in Doriath: Morwen’s decision to search out her son and Nienor’s decision to follow her mother. I don’t see Morgoth as having influenced those decisions, or indeed Turin’s actions with regard to Saeros. It is more that the events conspire to ensure that the consequences of the courses of action that they choose lead them further towards their doom.

External factors influence *all* human choices. If it weren't for said factors there would *be* no choices. It is the power to make choices that is the essence of free will. Turin's *actions* were *never* governed by the curse. His actions were without exception self chosen.

Yes, external factors do influence human behaviour. And, in the normal course of events, their existence is compatible with the concept of free will, as choice is freely exercised within the external parameters which are set. But here, we are talking about a curse. And not just any curse, but one uttered by the most powerful being in ME (originally the most powerful being in all of Arda). The way I see it, the curse operates by bringing the external factors, which would normally define the exercise of free will, together in such away that they effectively limit, and ultimately negate, the subject’s free will. Yes, choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

... the 'shadow' described by Manthor falls on him encouraging his natural faults and increasing the chances for further bad decisions but *not* causing them.

It dragged him down and made it more likely that he would perform certain actions, but it did not keep him from doing something else.

But this illustrates what I was trying (probably very badly) to explain. If the curse is influencing Turin’s fate by increasing the chances of his decisions going awry, then it is limiting his free will. This is not a case of an external factor indirectly influencing his behaviour, such as a mountain in his way causing him to go round it, but an external factor which is having a direct effect on his capacity to make decisions. In these circumstances, Turin’s choices are not wholly his own. His capacity for free choice is, to some degree, restricted by the operation of the curse. So, if the curse operates in this manner, then it will inherently involve some circumvention of the concept of Man’s free will.

However, I see it as operating slightly differently. Turin does have complete freedom to decide the course of action that he takes in response to any given situation. The curse does not increase his chances of making the wrong decision, but ensures that, whatever decision he does make will be the wrong one, effectively (and ultimately) robbing him of his free will. And it is in this context that I see the tragedy of the tale: no matter how hard he struggles, through choices freely made, to avoid his doom, it is all ultimately to no avail.

And now, I think that I am starting to repeat myself [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] , so we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, Morwen. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]