davem: You can think what you like about the issue, but the text flatly states that Morgoth feared Turgon because he feared that "ruin" would come to him from Turgon. I don’t see how it could possibly be any clearer than that.
Quote:
If you were reading the Sil as a historical account, & you knew it was a 'biased' account, if you just took the stated facts of Morgoths behaviour & left aside the 'interpretations' of the writers
--
The account is clearly tainted by its trading through the elves and the composer
|
Here we have a pretty knotty issue. How much of the story can we accept as being fact in its own context?
Granted, the story is couched as being an Elvish history of the wars. Also granted, Tolkien could and did disagree from some of the things that his characters said. In the Silmarillion there is an example where the belief is raised that Orcs were bred from Elves. Tolkien changed his mind about this, and so that passage in the books became part of the "Elvish" interpretation of the world that was not wholly correct. There are a few other examples of this in the stories.
However, the statements relating to Morgoth’s fear of Turgon do not seem to fall into that category.
I cannot recall that there is ever a breath of writing anywhere in all of Tolkien’s works that indicates Tolkien ever doubted Morgoth feared that Turgon (or his family) were somehow going to be involved in his ultimate demise (although I am open if anybody wants to point out something that I missed.) But other than that, there is just no reason to doubt it.
Yes, the story is supposedly written by Elvish historians, but it also contains the Sub-Creator’s thoughts about his own story. If we are wanting to discuss the works of Tolkien as we have them, then we have to accept the fact that he sometimes means what he writes about Middle Earth. Otherwise it is Fan Fiction and not Tolkien.
There is no place that indicates Tolkien changed his mind about this issue, so there is no reason to doubt it. You may continue to disagree about it, but you can’t deny that the book says the words "Morgoth feared Turgon." If we want to stick with what Tolkien wrote, that is what we have to accept.
And, just when you thought that the thread had drifted off into a debate on whether the texts say what they mean…
Saucepan Man:
Like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime, I feel a need to go back to this issue of limitations, restrictions, and encumbrances on Free Will.
Quote:
|
The way I see it, the curse operates by bringing the external factors, which would normally define the exercise of free will, together in such away that they effectively limit, and ultimately negate, the subject’s free will. Yes, choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.
|
As an aside, I’m not sure that just because things turned out a certain way that it represents a negation of Free Will. However, I have not clearly formed my thought on this subject, so I may return to it in a later post.
Back to limitations/restrictions vs. encumbrances. In my mind these do not represent the same thing.
I think of limits and restrictions as being bounds or walls around the actions of the character that absolutely prevent said character from acting outside of the bounds of the restriction in question, in this case the Curse on Hurin’s family. What I understand you to mean is that the curse set up a fixed "box" around Hurin’s family, outside of which they could not operate. Is that what you mean?
What I meant by the term "encumbrance" was more along the lines of a burden weighing down the family and making it more likely that their actions would have disastrous consequences. However, I don’t think that is a limit that fixed them inside the parameters of something that they could not act outside of, it strikes me as being more of a propensity.
So, were these two different viewpoints that we were presenting, or were we saying the same thing in different ways? Or are we splitting hairs about a very abstract concept?
Any thoughts?