[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Whether or there was a genuinely gay subtext was cleared up in another thread. The answer is no. Based on supportable evidence in the books. Gilthalion posted the response. Also, in the thread that brought up the topic, Obloquoy and I discussed this.

When Eve described her definition of gay to refer to emotional relationships, not physical, and male-bonding, and - well, that's a stretch of the word. Basically she was defining all love relationships between men as gay. That's not the definition of the word, but it's beside the point:

the growing non-physical bond between Frodo and Sam is love, though it isn't gay. Nor is it mere comraderie, and I think it also outstrips the comrade-at-arms relationship of two soldiers under fire, (though I feel that's what it's based on from Tolkien's life). It's deeper, cleaner, and closer

Is it Because of the nature of the quest to destroy the ring, the mutual sacrifice? You have double and triple sacrifce here. Does their relationship just serve to echo the theme of sacrifice, or is it brought about because of the nature of the quest? If their job were more violent, say, assassinate someone, would the relationship be very different?

Is the depth of their bond because of their personalities? Sam's unrelenting love and loyalty, and Frodo's personality which is less defined, though he was perceptive and developed a greater and greater respect for Sam's quality as the story went on. Even when he travelled with Pippin and Merry, Frodo's relationship with them did not deepen as with Sam. Was that because his early perception was off, couldn't see past Sam's role of gardener? His growing respect for Sam begins early, on the way to Bree.

The common ground amongst everyone here is not the gay issue (hahahahahahaha!) but it's true there is a Really strong bond, one that doesn't often appear outside gay relationships now (so it can be mistaken for that. And is. My english teacher in High School was the first to mention and I said -no way-but reading it as an adult I see why).

What is that relationship? Is it caused by the extreme circumstances, or is it combination of Frodo's perceptiveness and Sam's good heart, etc...?

If the gay issue weren't so touchy, I would have liked to have defined that such a love relationship is not gay because of the absence of sensuality (either emotional or physical). But the love between two men in a friendship can be just as strong or stronger.

-Maril

Elerian, yeah you're probably right. But people did keep flaming after Mithadan's post & shut down. I'm kinda amused that people are "flaming" over a gay subject, heh, if you'll forgive the pun.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]