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Old 08-30-2008, 02:20 PM   #20
Boromir88
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Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
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What is fascinating to me about Tolkien's orcs is Tolkien asks the question that Sociologists (and Psychologists) are still trying to answer today. It is a question Tolkien throws out there, but doesn't answer, and one that we will probably never have an "answer" to. Is the person to blame for their own choices, or do we blame the system? Do we blame the individual orcs for their cruelty, or the evil purpose (and environment) that Morgoth had for them. I mean the purpose of the Orcs are to really be cruel agents of destruction. Afterall the Mouth of Sauron was said to have been "more" cruel than any orc, and that thought just sends down my spine.

I am not too familiar with The Silmarillion, because honestly I don't like it as a story, and I really was only able to finish it (from cover-to-cover) once. But, I do get a different impression about the Orcs in LOTR than from the Orcs in the Silmarillion. Maybe that is because Sauron made improvements to his Orcs, and we also get more into Sauron's Orcs' minds.

Morgoth's Orcs certainly seemed pathetic and much like Canon Fodder. Wave after wave would come, and they would be slaughtered by our heroes (yet more would keep coming!) I never got the impression that Sauron's Orcs were canon fodder. Afterall, unlike what the movies show (gotta love Hollywood) Sauron didn't seem to have an unlimitted supply of Orcs he could keep throwing out there. He had amassed a lot of forces, but the army he sent to Erebor was made up of Easterlings, arguably the majority of the army the Witch-King commanded (when sieging Gondor) was made up of Men (or in the very least the Orcs wouldn't have outnumbered them by much).

I think Sauron also had a much different approach to "conquest" than Morgoth did. Morgoth eventually just wanted to destroy everything, Sauron on the other hand seemed to avoid war, if he could or if it suited his interests. He sends an emissary to offer peace to the dwarves. The message was pretty much, tell me where the Ring is, stay out of my way, and I'll leave you alone. He does send the MoS out to talk terms with Aragorn et. all. We all knew the "talks" weren't going to be productive, but afterall this was an army that just defeated him and now marched right to his gate. This offers a reason to believe, that first Sauron had a wiser policy than Morgoth, but also Sauron really didn't have the unlimited resources (and Orcs) to spend on constant fighting.

I think his alliance with Saruman shows Sauron's policy the best. He doesn't trust Saruman, but he could use Saruman and when Saruman is useless, he'll deal with the little brat later. I'm sure if the Dwarves had agreed to Sauron's offer, Sauron would have dealt with them eventually. We see Sauron did have superior numbers, but he just didn't have the power to constantly be at war, thus any temporary peace he could make, he probably would.

So, where am I trying to go with all this, ahh Sauron's Orcs never appeared to be canon fodder to me. He couldn't tap into an unlimitted amount and keep throwing them at his enemy. Also, we see our heroes don't actually keep cutting down wave after wave of Orcs.

The fight in Moria, I wouldn't really even call a skirmish. The Fellowship didn't have the endurance to beat back the Orcs, and fight them for 10 minutes as the movies portrayed. The Fellowship high-tailed their butts out of the chamber as soon as they could. The Orc Leader was also one tough cookie:
Quote:
With a thrus of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir's sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrus with his spear straight at Frodo.~The Bridge of Khazad-dum
Eventhough he was the titled the "orc-cheiftain" this is pretty darn impressive for something that is supposed to be canon fodder. He manhandles the strongest member of the Fellowship, and he has the agility to quickly duck below Aragorn's blow and strike Frodo. That is impressive.

Then at Helm's Deep, I can see an argument being made that Legolas and Gimli did slay over 80 baddies combined, that seems like Tolkien drawing from "classic" heroism. However, we do know that not all of Saruman's army were Uruk-hai (or Orcs), and this was a battle that lasted through the night. I have not the slightest idea the length of the battle, and there were breaks in between (a moment of "parley" too!) But, even a battle that lasts 3-4 hours, killing 40 baddies for one person definitely isn't like Hurin's last stand.

The only moment (to me) that seemed like the Orcs got mowed down easily was Boromir's last stand. Pippin does say all the arrows were aimed at Boromir and he does kill many of them. But, also consider Boromir kind of drove off the first attack, scared away the 2nd with a horn blow, and on the 3rd wave he was killed.

I guess a quick summary if you want to skip all that, the Orcs in LOTR seem different in several ways than Morgoth's Orcs. I wanted to toss out some more things about Orcs and their possible redemption, but I must be off. I guess I will throw this out there, for when I do get a chance, but I was thinking about Orc women. Tolkien confirms in Letters (and it is consistant with the Silmarillion) that Orcs reproduce like the Children of Iluvatar, and thus there had to have been Orc women. But, alas, he doesn't entertain us with how orc childhood was like (under Sauron's regime). Did the Orc women stay at home and nurse their younglings...complete with a pleasant tomato garden and a white picket fence? (Eeh, that seems a little difficult to believe, and also tomatoes had no place in Middle-earth...hmm maybe cabbage).
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