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Originally Posted by Eönwë
But Daleks and cyberman are actually (well, at least partly, but then there is the brain) machines. They have no emotion. They are all part of a whole killing machine. They are the ultimate robotic, patterned movement. There is no variation, no difference. They are effective killing machines, but only as effective as their leader. An orc would run away if about to be killed, a robot would not. Maybe Morgoth liked that idea- that they could fend for themselves when not in use. Orcs are living, breathing beings. Not immortal metal bodis. They are both scary, but in different ways. Daleks and Cybermen are the pinnacle of organistaion, whereas orcs are more like a rabble. But often the come up with their own, horrible solutions.
What I am saying is that they are different types of evil. One works as a whole (Daleks and Cybermen), one works in different ways, but in the same direction.
And anyway, would the Daleks be so interesting if there weren't those "special" ones? There are quite a few episodes devoted to them, just like in LOTR when you get to find out what the orcs really think.
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I believe the Daleks actually turned on their creator, Davros at one point (and there is something interesting in the series just finished that I dare say no more on for those who haven't seen it yet). And they are also hyper intelligent and could easily come up with their own solutions. But my point is it's their sheer ruthlessness and them being unable to be 'redeemed' that makes them so interesting and
frightening.
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Originally Posted by Boro
I mean the purpose of the Orcs are to really be cruel agents of destruction. Afterall the Mouth of Sauron was said to have been "more" cruel than any orc, and that thought just sends down my spine.
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I find a lot of characters and creations a LOT more frightening than the Orcs - I could make a list rating scariness (might be a fun thread) and scarier than Orcs would be: the Nazgul, Gollum, Shelob, the Balrog, the Watcher in the Water etc etc....
Now onto cannon fodder...Morgoth seems to seek nothing more than annihilation, negation, and his Orcs are far more crazed, whereas Sauron seeks domination and his Orcs are more ordered. I agree Sauron doesn't treat them as cannon fodder, but
Tolkien does.
It's possible he was stuck between a rock and a hard place in that he had to have an enemy army to be put to the sword, and like has been said, he literally struggled with the moral implications of that need...maybe I am churlish in that he doesn't fully pull off either having an effectively scary, amoral enemy nor an enemy which has been corrupted to be that way and is to be pitied.
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Originally Posted by Boro
I guess I will throw this out there, for when I do get a chance, but I was thinking about Orc women. Tolkien confirms in Letters (and it is consistant with the Silmarillion) that Orcs reproduce like the Children of Iluvatar, and thus there had to have been Orc women. But, alas, he doesn't entertain us with how orc childhood was like (under Sauron's regime). Did the Orc women stay at home and nurse their younglings...complete with a pleasant tomato garden and a white picket fence? (Eeh, that seems a little difficult to believe, and also tomatoes had no place in Middle-earth...hmm maybe cabbage).
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Like I've said, if Orcs are breeding in the normal way, then this reduces the likelihood that their home culture is inherently violent. If you look at the most ruthless of soldiers, they must still retain some basic emotions such as caring for their comrades, for if they didn't, then who would care for them if they were injured? How would they know their comrades didn't have them in their sights instead of the enemy? Even Daleks must retain the sense of comradeship at the very least.
And to raise even a tough little Orcling there has to be a fair degree of care - do Orclings need nappy changes, feeding and amusement? I'd imagine so. It's possible there were Orc nurseries and female Orcs lived in thralldom, but it still means at least 50% of Orcs must have been capable of caring
