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Old 10-17-2008, 08:19 AM   #24
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
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Tolkien

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feliandreka View Post
And thanks specifically to Legate of Amon Lanc for the direct comments to my first post
You are welcome, of course. And that's why we are here - to discuss these things



Quote:
Originally Posted by Feliandreka View Post
Does anyone think that Manwe, to whom the Eagles serve, was their air traffic controller, governing their flight patterns and telling them what to do at every turn? No. Absolutely not. The Eagles were very intelligent. The descendants of the same birds who protected Gondolin lived in the Misty mountains in the time of the war of the ring. Can we not suppose they were just as intelligent, though perhaps diminished in stature from the birds of old, and had their own means to follow the events of the world? Who can suppose they were not aware of the Battle of Five armies? All they had to do was look down. They hate goblins as much as men and elves and dwarves. What better time to kill them when they are in the open attacking their own humanoid allies?

The point is, nobody had to tell the Eagles what to do. This idea that Manwe was still ordering them about in the 3rd age does not seem realistic to me. The Eagles governed their own affairs and had their own sources of information. Helping Gandalf was on their adgenda, as was aiding the Heir of Numenor. It is in their very nature, so long as they retain some measure of their former stature, be it size and or inteligence, to oppose Sauron and his minions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
But why was helping Gandalf on their agenda? I have offered suitable context for their miraculous aid. And it was miraculous was it not? Consider: why would a large group of Eagles suddenly appear at precisely the right time, thousands of miles from their home range, and in Mordor of all places? How did the Eagles know precisely where to go? It really doesn't add up -- unless they were sent by some divine agency. One thought might be Radagast, as he sent an Eagle to Orthanc, but that was coincidental, and it was not sent to aid Gandalf; in addition, Radagast is never shown to help the cause in any other sense thereafter, nor was he in council with the Western allies (perhaps deservedly Saruman characterizes him as rather thick). So, then logically they must have been sent by someone else.

Also, where in any text did it say the Eagles were interested in aiding the Heir of Numenor? They could care less for mortal men (except for stealing their sheep). The Eagles only offered assistance to Gandalf. And in the quotes I offered in a previous post, it seems reasonable (lets not use the word realistic, this is after all a fantasy) that Manwë was still able to influence matters in Arda. And it is not out of the realm of possibility, given the fact that he sent the Istari on their mission in the first place. Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.
I would actually side with Morthoron here. I am not saying that the Eagles were guided by Manwë all the time: no, certainly not, but they were not so even in the First Age; and indeed, as Feliandreka says, they were intelligent and had their own reason to guide them. If I were to compare the Eagles to another species in Middle-Earth, I would say Ents, for example. However, I believe that on several particularly important occassions, there may have been a divine guidance for them. Certainly the Battle of Morannon, it seems too improbable for the Eagles to appear there just like that, as Morthoron said.

One thing about which we could discuss is, whether it had to be Manwë, or any of the Valar, or whether it might have been perhaps Eru himself. Valar gave up their rulership of Arda: but if we were discontent with the idea of Valar intervening, why could not Eru himself directly intervene?

But, now one related thing I have to note as well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feliandreka View Post
Everything points to non-involvement of the Valar. Without actual proof of visions or directions in some secret manner, Gandalf was just lucky enough to discover the ring first. But the odds of dealing with it were so slight that the story has great meaning for people because it explores the limits of the hearts of the characters as they develop and find the bravery and courage to accomplish thing which they never would have guessed they could do. Consider the heart darkened Eonwy slaying the Lord of the Nazgul, the minstrel begging leave to sing of Frodo and the Ring of Doom and the description of that song on the company, the final mental battle between Frodo and the Ring at Mount Doom, even the grief of Sam as he returns to the Shire...no I have to say all these things were experienced through the courage and motivations of individuals who played out the story.
In any case, even from LotR it is clear - and this I would like to point out in reaction to Feliandreka's post - that there was something else at work, not only the efforts and doings of the characters, but some other powers: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring etc. I say we need to see both sides of the coin: yes, there was the fact that I emphasised in my first post, that Valar lay down the rulership of Arda. On the other hand, there was still something working there: be it Valar themselves, or Valar on Eru's direction, or Eru himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andsigil View Post
I have to admit, the appearance of the eagles at the Battle of 5 Armies and (more so) at the Morannen, always struck me as Deus ex Machina. This is the only part of Tolkien's writings with which I've ever taken exception.
That's true and I have to agree with it, however then, when it's already there - and I don't even consider it that disturbing when I read about it, maybe only when I reflect on it - it indeed gives one the thought that it indeed was "Deus (sic!) ex Machina" - a divine intervence.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot one important thing. Despite the fact that Valar lay down their rulership over Arda, Ulmo was still the one who never abandoned the dwellers of Middle-Earth before. Although this step was really too far, I still find it weird that Ulmo, the one who always was the closest to the Children and those who remained in Middle-Earth, would not wish to interfere in any way to the troubles of Arda: like I said in my first post, other Valar sent their Maiar as Istari at least - but what about Ulmo? If this was the only help the Valar could give to M-E, I would expect him to wait in the front line and push Manwë and Varda (! Morthoron - it was Varda as well who had her share on sending Olórin, and at least she was the one who said the famous words "not as third") to send his Maiar there!
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Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 10-17-2008 at 08:32 AM.
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