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Firefoot · 12-10-2008, 01:34 PM

It seems to me that there is an underemphasis in this thread on Sauron's ability to deceive people. The future-Nazgul could very well have been just, decent Men, deceived by Sauron into believing good of the Rings. Sauron at this point emphasized his reputation as a gift giver; the rings could no doubt have been presented as kingly gifts, able to extend the abilities, wisdom, etc. of the bearer. Not unlike the fruit in the garden of Eden, right?

If you accept the premise that no one in Middle-earth was perfect (and I think everyone would), this implies that everyone has some kind of fault that Sauron could have appealed to and that the Rings could have worked on. In fact, the Rings probably could have turned even virtues into faults! Take a king who desired to rule justly and well, who may have had a group of insurgents on his hands... presented in the right way, a ring might seem a desirable tool indeed! It would be taken with a desire to work good, but the man would become trapped and twisted - that desire to rule well might turn into sheer desire for power thus leading to tyranny. (cf. the reasoning of Gandalf and Galadriel in refusing the One Ring from Frodo).

I doubt that there are many Men who, understanding the full powers and implications of the Nine, would have taken a Ring. So Sauron didn't tell them everything. He told them exactly what he thought they wanted or needed to hear... luring, threatening, lying, whatever. Note the word "ensnare" in the original quote. He trapped them, tricked them, though at the time they all perhaps thought themselves fully willing.

I'm not saying that the future-Nazgul were necessarily good men... but they weren't necessarily evil either. They could easily have been either, and probably there was a mix of both. Was Boromir evil? By no means! Yet I could easily see him as the sort of person that Sauron might have sought out with one of the Nine had he lived a couple thousand years earlier.

And for those of you who enjoy the fan fiction-y side of things, I can't resist a plug... this is possibly my favorite RPG of all the ones I've written in, about the fall of Khamul: Shadow of the West.

12-10-2008, 01:34 PM	#12
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	It seems to me that there is an underemphasis in this thread on Sauron's ability to deceive people. The future-Nazgul could very well have been just, decent Men, deceived by Sauron into believing good of the Rings. Sauron at this point emphasized his reputation as a gift giver; the rings could no doubt have been presented as kingly gifts, able to extend the abilities, wisdom, etc. of the bearer. Not unlike the fruit in the garden of Eden, right? If you accept the premise that no one in Middle-earth was perfect (and I think everyone would), this implies that everyone has some kind of fault that Sauron could have appealed to and that the Rings could have worked on. In fact, the Rings probably could have turned even virtues into faults! Take a king who desired to rule justly and well, who may have had a group of insurgents on his hands... presented in the right way, a ring might seem a desirable tool indeed! It would be taken with a desire to work good, but the man would become trapped and twisted - that desire to rule well might turn into sheer desire for power thus leading to tyranny. (cf. the reasoning of Gandalf and Galadriel in refusing the One Ring from Frodo). I doubt that there are many Men who, understanding the full powers and implications of the Nine, would have taken a Ring. So Sauron didn't tell them everything. He told them exactly what he thought they wanted or needed to hear... luring, threatening, lying, whatever. Note the word "ensnare" in the original quote. He trapped them, tricked them, though at the time they all perhaps thought themselves fully willing. I'm not saying that the future-Nazgul were necessarily good men... but they weren't necessarily evil either. They could easily have been either, and probably there was a mix of both. Was Boromir evil? By no means! Yet I could easily see him as the sort of person that Sauron might have sought out with one of the Nine had he lived a couple thousand years earlier. And for those of you who enjoy the fan fiction-y side of things, I can't resist a plug... this is possibly my favorite RPG of all the ones I've written in, about the fall of Khamul: Shadow of the West.