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The Might · 01-02-2009, 09:40 AM

That's an awesome idea, Gordis!

Dol Guldur could, at least theoretically, be an idea. I mean, what if the Necromancer started testing weird stuff on people, trying to turn them into mighty bears that would aid his cause.

Some predecessors of Beorn then escaped or were maybe let loose into the wild, but perhaps because they retained too much humanity they were safe to be around when in human form and were not ready to serve Sauron. Maybe they escaped sometime during the Watchful Peace when Sauron wasn't there, made their way into the Misty Mountains and left again when the Orcs arrived.

But here comes the big problem in the Dol Guldur theory... if Beorn's kind had been actually created by Sauron in some way, then this skill would be not something learned, but rather something passed on genetically. It was in their blood to have this power and Beorn inherited it that way, perhaps as the last of his line.

But why would he then be called a magician? A magician cannot perform tricks as if he has the knowledge in his blood, he learns the tricks first. This is why it would only make sense for Beorn to have been tought shapeshifting by someone who already mastered it. Either his parents in the mountains, who for whatever reason knew this, or Radagast.

Now, of course Sauron may have tought them this, but I doubt it since it was not his style. He would not teach minions how to gain greater power, he would like his master from the First Age rather torment and use dark magic on them.

Ok, now to Beorn's size. I know it sounds incredible that he was this big, but don't be so sure that it was something special really. Now, we know that the men of the mountains he probably descended from were related to the Woodmen, the Eotheod and the Bardings, meaning they all had ancestors in some distant House of Men from the First Age.

However, in Tolkien's works Men are not always what we regard as Men. There are Hobbits as smaller variant and then there are the Giants, a very weird race that appears to have lived in the Misty Mountains as well and who were (I can't the original quote for now) a larger version of men, just like Hobbits were the small one. This is how Tolkien refered to them, still men. Now, although in other early writing (BoLT) Tolkien regards them as evil and creations of Melkor in the Hobbit it appears that nice Giants do exist, as Gandalf wants to find one to block the entrance to the Front Porch.

This means that giant sized men did exist, they were there in the Hobbit, so Beorn's size was nothing really special.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but what if some predecessor of Beorn fell in love with a Giant and then... you know... Beorn inherited some of the Giant's qualities... more or less like Hagrid.

Unfortunately we learn nothing new about Giants in LotR, the only hint given is when the Fellowship hears voices when trying to use the Redhorn Pass.

PS: I am really enjoying the thread.

EDIT: regarding this idea, Ibri, of course it is plausible, but in my opinion not really probable. Gandalf was wisest of all Maia, he probably knew many if not all of them and I would expect him to be informed about these kind of things especially after all those extensive voyages through M-e. That's my problem, I find it difficult to believe that a Maia would take the form of a shapeshifter and marry a man/woman in the mountains like Melian did with Thingol and give birth to such a line. Still plausible though.

01-02-2009, 09:40 AM	#8
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	That's an awesome idea, Gordis! Dol Guldur could, at least theoretically, be an idea. I mean, what if the Necromancer started testing weird stuff on people, trying to turn them into mighty bears that would aid his cause. Some predecessors of Beorn then escaped or were maybe let loose into the wild, but perhaps because they retained too much humanity they were safe to be around when in human form and were not ready to serve Sauron. Maybe they escaped sometime during the Watchful Peace when Sauron wasn't there, made their way into the Misty Mountains and left again when the Orcs arrived. But here comes the big problem in the Dol Guldur theory... if Beorn's kind had been actually created by Sauron in some way, then this skill would be not something learned, but rather something passed on genetically. It was in their blood to have this power and Beorn inherited it that way, perhaps as the last of his line. But why would he then be called a magician? A magician cannot perform tricks as if he has the knowledge in his blood, he learns the tricks first. This is why it would only make sense for Beorn to have been tought shapeshifting by someone who already mastered it. Either his parents in the mountains, who for whatever reason knew this, or Radagast. Now, of course Sauron may have tought them this, but I doubt it since it was not his style. He would not teach minions how to gain greater power, he would like his master from the First Age rather torment and use dark magic on them. Ok, now to Beorn's size. I know it sounds incredible that he was this big, but don't be so sure that it was something special really. Now, we know that the men of the mountains he probably descended from were related to the Woodmen, the Eotheod and the Bardings, meaning they all had ancestors in some distant House of Men from the First Age. However, in Tolkien's works Men are not always what we regard as Men. There are Hobbits as smaller variant and then there are the Giants, a very weird race that appears to have lived in the Misty Mountains as well and who were (I can't the original quote for now) a larger version of men, just like Hobbits were the small one. This is how Tolkien refered to them, still men. Now, although in other early writing (BoLT) Tolkien regards them as evil and creations of Melkor in the Hobbit it appears that nice Giants do exist, as Gandalf wants to find one to block the entrance to the Front Porch. This means that giant sized men did exist, they were there in the Hobbit, so Beorn's size was nothing really special. Pure speculation on my part of course, but what if some predecessor of Beorn fell in love with a Giant and then... you know... Beorn inherited some of the Giant's qualities... more or less like Hagrid. Unfortunately we learn nothing new about Giants in LotR, the only hint given is when the Fellowship hears voices when trying to use the Redhorn Pass. PS: I am really enjoying the thread. EDIT: regarding this idea, Ibri, of course it is plausible, but in my opinion not really probable. Gandalf was wisest of all Maia, he probably knew many if not all of them and I would expect him to be informed about these kind of things especially after all those extensive voyages through M-e. That's my problem, I find it difficult to believe that a Maia would take the form of a shapeshifter and marry a man/woman in the mountains like Melian did with Thingol and give birth to such a line. Still plausible though. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown Last edited by The Might; 01-02-2009 at 09:44 AM.