[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by AbercrombieOfRohan

What about the Rohirrim (or Rohanites as Lush would say…)? How come they didn’t overthrow Theoden, even though he was poisoned by Saruman?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Then you should take into account how settled a people are in their land and as Morthoron says, migrants might feel less connected to their land. The Rohirrim definitely give the impression of being a relatively 'new' and developing culture in Rohan (their wealth is portable, their literature still oral and not in libraries) - so their loyalties are to their people and less so to their land. Maybe this is why they do not challenge Theoden in his madness?

I don't think their "nomadishness" actually plays any considerable factor here. I think all nations in Middle-Earth would act like that, nomadic or not nomadic. I would say Groin was right here - like many others, he simply was not a good king, but he was a king nevertheless (like Fengel just shortly before him, too - he had really a bad reputation). The same as Denethor was a Steward. King is a king - any insurrections are usually wrongful in Middle-Earth, the order is indeed monarchy, as Tolkien himself liked it to be, for that matter.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If you look at history, particularly in the manner a philologist like Tolkien would, then the migration of clans, including their societal norms, customs and language, would take precedence over nationalism, which is a relatively new process in time. Patriotism, then, should be viewed as an Anglo-Saxon, Celt, Goth or a Norman would see it; that is, identifying with kin or clan over the physical boundaries of a given realm. In France, for instance, it wasn't until the 15th century that there was a consolidation of power by the monarchy sufficient enough to weld disparate Burgundians, Armagnacs, Guiennese, etc., into a unified country. In the Dark Ages, the later Merovingian kings ruled only the Ile de Paris, and had varying influence outside that limited scope.

Well, certainly. One has to bear in mind the fact that the idea of a "national state", or, the idea of a nation bound to some space - a country - is, in fact, generally a very modern thing only a few centuries old. And in Middle-Earth, indeed, it is usually not very important for anybody to defend the land itself - if somebody is defending a piece of land, it is usually because there is some city, some tower, some fortress etc. There is a very slight difference between this modern idea of a "national state" and, let's say, the Gondorians trying to win over Umbar. It has nothing to do with the fact that "this is Gondor", but simply with that that there is a monument of their ancient king and victory over Sauron.

And yadayada… what do you guys think about other cultures? What about the Elves (Rivendell, Lothlorien, Noldor even?)

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

The marchwardens of Lothlorien appear quite dedicated to the defense of their land, but I sometimes wonder if they are more devoted to Celeborn and Galadriel than to any sense of "country." Then again, is "country" an actual place, or a sense of community not dependent on a physical location? I think that for the mortals, a sense of physical place is important, as the land is passed down from generation to generation, but among the Elves, it might be less so, since in a long, immortal lifetime, one might get bored with staying in one place (as some of the Noldor did in Valinor), but could carry a devotion to a specific group of people from place to place.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I think the Lothlorien Elves really love their country as well!

I believe with Elves, indeed, as it has been said, it usually really is not about the land itself (I recall some Elves leaving their homes in Southern Mirkwood just because it was getting too shadowy ), although not completely. Certainly the immortality means outliving any realms, and any changes, including those of the land - and ultimately, the Elves would all leave Middle-Earth for good, whatever realms they had there. Nevertheless, even they are quite "patriotic" about Lórien, or Gondolin and other places, for that matter. The answer is, in my opinion, not in the piece of land itself, but in what the land represents. Gondolin or Nargothrond are places of beauty, the pride of Elvendom. And Haldir's love for Lórien is of similar kind, I am sure: he does not love the piece of ground, but he loves the land blessed by the power of the Lady. Haldir's love for his land is actually of the most "basic" sort: he loves "leaf and branch, water and stone" - I don't know how about you, but I have some places near my home which I like to visit. For Haldir (and other Elves, I think most of them, very likely), this just goes deeper. And think about Treebeard. Now that is the same, and going even further! In fact, if we are to speak of any patriotism, then the Ents are certainly something! And, all right, a patriotism bordering with xenophobia belongs to the Old Forest (although there were other factors as well, and it was mainly the despocy of Old Man Willow and not as much a thing of the trees themselves).

What about Tom Bombadil?