[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh, dear. "It's not the lad's fault, Milud, he had a bad childhood."

Tolkien clearly struggled over the nature & motivation of Orcs, whether they were 'robots' or sentient creatures. If they were sentient one can analyse their behaviour, attitudes, whether they lived empty, hopeless lives, & if so to what extent they had any option in that.

The point of this particular discussion is why Tolkien (uniquely, I think) chose to, for a brief moment, give us a glimpse into the essential 'humanity' of Orcs. We get to see more deeply into the psyche of these two creatures than we do into most of the other characters in the whole book. In a real sense these are 'modern' people who have snuck into Tolkien's epic romance.

"Sh, Gorbag!" Shagrat's voice was lowered, so that even with his strangely sharpened hearing Sam could only just catch what was said. "They may, but they've got eyes and ears everywhere; some among my lot, as like as not. But there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgul down below are, by your account; and Lugburz is too. Something nearly slipped." 'Nearly, you say!" said Gorbag. 'All right," said Shagrat, 'but we'll talk of that later. Wait till we get to the Under-way. There's a place there where we can talk a bit, while the lads go on." ........ 'No, I don't know," said Gorbag's voice. "The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays, so it's no use grumbling. I tell you, it's no game serving down in the city." 'You should try being up here with Shelob for company," said Shagrat. "I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier."

"It's going well, they say." "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say?--if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." 'Ah!" said Shagrat. 'Like old times." 'Yes," said Gorbag. "But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay," his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.

Those are real, true, grumbling soldiers - & they don't 'belong' in Middle-earth. They complicate things - they aren't the simplistically 'nasty' bad guys of the rest of the legendarium. For a moment they break free of their cliched existence & become three dimensional beings with hopes & fears & dreams. Again, its that "bleak underlying human landscape" which peeps through the fairy story, which for all his efforts Tolkien cannot keep out of his creation.

What's interesting, though, is that these 'glimpses' are always associated with the 'bad' side. The good side wanders in Faery, beneath the stars to the accompaniment of Elven hymns to Elbereth.