Nice to see a lively discussion!
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Originally Posted by Alfirin
On the subeject of old famous items=magic items. I'ce always felt it was something along the lines of every person who uses something, like a sword or book leaves a little of themselves in it. When you make use of the item you somehow tap into all of those selves and they become part of you too
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I think the modern theory of atoms states that everytime you're in contact with something you "exchange" atoms with that something whether it's the table you lean your hand on or the shirt you wear - or the dear person you touch (you see, it can also be romantic even if it's scientific!
). When you're reluctant to throw that dear sweater of yours into the lumps, couldn't it be that one reason for it is that you know the cloth is partly you yourself as you have worn it for so long and so much of you - purely materialistically on the level of atoms - is there, in it?
That basic idea has sent my thoughts on those old rugged sea-farers; fishermen and the like. I think you all have a mental image of how those old men look like all over the world. Just look at their skin. Weather-worn or -beaten we say. But how about you just think that they have partly become the sea themselves; the salted water, the wind, the rain... They look like that! I think that is quite poetic indeed, awesome and mysterious!
No, I'm not attempting here a scientific interpretation of how the Ring wears it's user down on atomic level and why one should thence not use it. I agree with many here that in the core of fantasy there is a kind of implicit agreement that not all things should be "explained away". As I said, I'm not looking forwards or even wishing to have a scientific theory over the
Palantiri or things like that. But I do think we lovers of fantasy, fiction, arts and humanities disrepute the natural sciences too easily and think we have the creativity and imagination - and the most fulfilling and spectacular visions of the world. And that clearly is not the case.
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Originally Posted by Lal
Isn't it interesting how physicists seem to coin some of the most poetic language to describe their findings? You could say "Ah, they're all nerds who gre up reading fantasy and sci-fi! No wonder!" but to me it suggests that these discoveries and theories are as close as we humans can come to magic in the real world.
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I couldn't agree more!
Legate called for irrationality. Hmm... I'm not sure if I would like to live in an irrational world (on the level of how things work - just think of living in a perpetual "improbability drive" by Douglas Adams where your arm could change into a bowl of petunias any minute or a giant spermwhale might materialise out from nowhere) - or if I would like to read of one.* Even fantasy-worlds have their "rules" and consistant regularities. They would be totally unintelligible without that. We don't need to spell out those rules out in fantasy though and that's quite okay with me. But fantasy is not irrational.
Humans are able of irrational behaviour. Now that is a mystery and an awesome fact - and brings us back to the question of human mind of which we know only a tiny little bit so far. That unexplicability of our own minds makes the question fascinating - but not because it's unexplicable or irrational as such in principle, but because there is hope that some people thousand years from now may understand a little more than we do - and may have totally different view of how this world works far more radical anyone of us could dream of today. And that I'd call exciting!
A case in point is what
Hookbill talks about the kabbalistic tradition - and the same would go about the pythagoreans with numbers (from whom the jewish mystics learned a lot). It is something our modern-day understanding thinks of as mystical or something; but it is a system of regularities, rules and laws! They only base themselves on different basic presumptions than the modern science does. So kabbalistic tradition is not irrational - on the contrary: kabbala could be criticised of being too rationalistic and mathematic!
The world being rational (like Hegel said) is still no hindrance to it being wonderful or awesome.
The power of a magnet was deemed magical before it was understood it was a natural phenomenon. But to me it doesn't at all diminish the awe that I can see an object drawing another one to itself from a distance away. I'm still fascinated by magnetism even if I "know" it's just a natural thing.
Oh my... I seem to have gotten far off from where I started and the inner logic of this post is collapsing any minute now so it's better I quit before it's too late...
* Okay, I love absurd theater and surrealism, but I'm not sure those are as irrational as we oftentimes think.