[Boromir88]

I know your post came before the message I sent you, so you may have already figured this out, based upon the PM, but it's relevant to the discussion here, and it can't hurt bringing up new things I did not send.

But anyway I don't see the difference between the self-interest and morals as you do Boro. Or I do have a different interpretation of it.~Nogrod

There's nothing wrong with wanting to live, wanting to survive, wanting have sons and daughters who would make you proud. But, what if many years from now, when I have little Boro's running around and in my own self-interest to see them succeed I decide to threaten, and coerce, their principal/teachers to give them "A's." Now granted this is a rather simple scenario, but some of the greatest atrocities can be committed out of love, love for family, love for those you care about. Or maybe even a tougher one to slam your head about, what if your child is the one who takes someone's life? And let me ask, would you be able to turn them in, if you knew they did it? Would you be evil if you did not, out of protection?

Let's just take a look at Grima, and this is where I disagree that LOTR is "not Manichaean" end of debate. Why does he betray Rohan? Saruman didn't beat him, or force him into it...not initially at least. It was money, but wasn't it also love? Love for Eowyn? Grima made the initial choice to deceive and betray. This is where the problem occurs when you take out free will, you displace blame to someone else. Eru is running things...right? So it must be his fault Grima betrayed! There is no personal responsibility in Grima's decision to betray, it's all Eru's fault, or Saruman's. As opposed to Boromir who consciously admits to doing wrong, but doesn't displace blame on the Ring, nor on Eru, or anyone else except himself.

"I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid."~The Departure of Boromir

That is where Boromir's redemption is...not because he believed in a Divine power, that was ultimately good. But that he is personally responsible for whatever choices he made - good or bad. That is where other characters like Saruman, Denethor, and Grima fail, in their justification for their actions and their blame of others.

Why be so pessimistic? Why don't you say that all we can really know for certain is life and happiness?

Whoever declared that death and pain were evil? Or something bad? I think there is a difference between death and pain, by nature, and death and pain, by humans.

Nature and life requires death. Trees drop their leaves so they can bloom again. Flowers age and die, but drop and spread their seeds to grow new ones. Like everything else, humans need to reproduce to survive. Pain teaches us valuable lessons, I mean I sure as heck done like feeling it, but like I said, I know now not to stick my head in a fireplace that is burning wood! Pain makes us stronger. If something is natural, how can it be evil?

I think what makes "death" and "pain" carry the negative weight with people, is the fact that humans have the ability to cause it (as do Chimps and other primates). Death and pain that is caused by people is what I would call evil. Death and pain occur naturally, but what gives us (as humans) the right to cause it and take away other living beings right to reach their own natural end? To use an LOTR example, I mean someone killing or enslaving people - you know like Sauron. I agree that we have the capacity to care, love, and be sympathetic, and there doesn't need to be a Divine power (or a 'hero' that provides a good example) to show us what is good, but we also have the capacity to hand out death and pain, and there doesn't need to be a Divine power (or a brutal oppressive dictator) who allows it. We have the capability to kill and inflict pain, without anyone forcing us or threatening our instincts to survive - and that is what I classify evil. We have the natural ability to be caring and loving, as well as the natural ability to cause death and pain, it is the the one we choose to act on that defines whether we are a good person...or well...not. (Of course this is just a rather simple and "major problems" explanation, I can get into talking about what are someone's intentions. We might say something, out of frustration or anger, that hurts someone we care about, but that doesn't make us evil...but anyway that might be suited for another discussion).