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Galin · 01-24-2010, 10:35 AM

Good find Inziladun.

The statement you note can be found in the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), so it's within the range when Celeborn was imagined as Sindarin. So far, the earliest I can date the notion that Celeborn was an Elf from Aman, is possibly 1968 (The Shibboleth of Feanor is dated by Hammond and Scull as '1968 or later' in their guide, and under entry 'c. 1969 or later' in their chronology, so it would seem that a general 'around this time' is the best we can do so far).

This makes enough sense compared to the publication of The Road Goes Ever On, in which Celeborn is one of the Sindar. This book was published in the US in October 1967, in Great Britain in March 1968, although obviously Tolkien would be working on the information before these dates.

I suppose one could argue then, that Tolkien intended to revise this passage in the Silmarillion along with other things, if Celeborn was truly going to become a Teler from Aman; however that would not be his only consideration in any case, as there were other problematic concerns with respect to this change (not the least of which was stepping on statements in already published material).

Focusing more on the word West, in Appendix B for instance, the Istari are said to hail from the Far West, while Gandalf is then noted to have '... wandered mostly in the West and never made for himself any lasting abode' (assuming the capitalization in this example follows Tolkien).

Haste asked about the ultimate version of the passage published in The Lord of the Rings, and it is this version in which Celeborn dwelling in the West is seemingly Celeborn the Nandorin Elf -- again, meaning the underlying concept when written, that is. However a meaning 'the West of Middle-earth' still seems generally applicable to a Sindarin Celeborn.

From what I can tell, it looks like the word West came along with the 'Nandorin phase', although it's hard to be sure. Early on, both Galadriel and Celeborn might have been imagined as Noldorin Elves, but an early addition had Galadriel noting that she had dwelt 'here' with Celeborn since the days of dawn, when she passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor

In any case, unless I missed it, no word West appears in the earliest draft texts here, and again I assume -- since the introduction of the ultimate form of this passage is not noted in The History Of Middle-Earth (that I recall) -- that the word entered the revised passage when Celeborn became Nandorin (whatever he was originally in 1941).

Or if it is noted somewhere in HME, please remind me.

01-24-2010, 10:35 AM	#19
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Good find Inziladun. The statement you note can be found in the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), so it's within the range when Celeborn was imagined as Sindarin. So far, the earliest I can date the notion that Celeborn was an Elf from Aman, is possibly 1968 (The Shibboleth of Feanor is dated by Hammond and Scull as '1968 or later' in their guide, and under entry 'c. 1969 or later' in their chronology, so it would seem that a general 'around this time' is the best we can do so far). This makes enough sense compared to the publication of The Road Goes Ever On, in which Celeborn is one of the Sindar. This book was published in the US in October 1967, in Great Britain in March 1968, although obviously Tolkien would be working on the information before these dates. I suppose one could argue then, that Tolkien intended to revise this passage in the Silmarillion along with other things, if Celeborn was truly going to become a Teler from Aman; however that would not be his only consideration in any case, as there were other problematic concerns with respect to this change (not the least of which was stepping on statements in already published material). Focusing more on the word West, in Appendix B for instance, the Istari are said to hail from the Far West, while Gandalf is then noted to have '... wandered mostly in the West and never made for himself any lasting abode' (assuming the capitalization in this example follows Tolkien). Haste asked about the ultimate version of the passage published in The Lord of the Rings, and it is this version in which Celeborn dwelling in the West is seemingly Celeborn the Nandorin Elf -- again, meaning the underlying concept when written, that is. However a meaning 'the West of Middle-earth' still seems generally applicable to a Sindarin Celeborn. From what I can tell, it looks like the word West came along with the 'Nandorin phase', although it's hard to be sure. Early on, both Galadriel and Celeborn might have been imagined as Noldorin Elves, but an early addition had Galadriel noting that she had dwelt 'here' with Celeborn since the days of dawn, when she passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor In any case, unless I missed it, no word West appears in the earliest draft texts here, and again I assume -- since the introduction of the ultimate form of this passage is not noted in The History Of Middle-Earth (that I recall) -- that the word entered the revised passage when Celeborn became Nandorin (whatever he was originally in 1941). Or if it is noted somewhere in HME, please remind me.