[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm not saying that "goblin" does not mean "orc", only that as a translator, Tolkien uses the word "goblin" earlier on, and the further we go, the further we (and Frodo, who is writing the book) get into Middle Earth, so Tolkien uses the original word.

OK but your suggestion appears to be that Frodo, as writer, employs a word that denotes these creatures 'as creatures of legend which the Hobbits know only from stories' (as you say) -- with the implication that this is something which orc does not do.

Frodo using an original word other than orc is not impossible as a general theory, but the note to The Hobbit tells us the original word that 'goblin' translates is orc itself, being the Common Speech word the Hobbits used at the time.

If orc has been usually translated by 'goblin' in The Hobbit, but has been, in theory, 'retained' (though not in every instance) in The Lord of the Rings, then hasn't the reader essentially been told that the original word used throughout the tale is really orc? When one sees 'Sam' we know Frodo wrote Ban; and when one sees 'goblin' we know Frodo wrote orc.



Or if Tolkien as translator is doing as you suggest -- despite that Frodo used orc in the original let's say -- one has to contend with the appearances of orc early on in the tale. Orc is used early on in The Lord of the Rings (Frodo uses it 'in speech' in The Shadow of the Past for example). How are the examples, including the number of examples, of orc versus 'goblin' as they appear in the early parts of the tale supporting your idea?

But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong: 'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,'

I would employ the idea of translation here set out by Tolkien, and so I imagine 'goblin-men' has been fully translated (whatever Gamling means by it), in this case perhaps simply due to the translator's preference for the flow of the sentence, but in any event: English 'goblin-men' substituted for an original Westron word.

(maybe *orkil could mean 'goblin-man'? total speculation! and probably wrong, but loosely based on Banakil, Tarkil at least)