The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Goblins of the Grey Mts./Northern Misty Mts. during WotR?

Not Yet Dead · 06-23-2010, 06:38 PM

First of all: First time poster, longish-time reader. 'Sup Downers.
Now, Onwards!

Tolkien's descriptions of the Battle Under the Trees and the assault on Erebor and Dale during the War of the Ring are not exactly detailed, but they are clear about the participants: Dol Guldur marched a great deal of its people against Thranduil's kingdom (and apparently the Woodsmen/Beornings), while leaving Erebor and Dale to the Easterlings. Orcs from Moria were (I believe) assisting the assault on Lorien.

Where were the orcs from the Grey Mountains, and from the Mountains north of Moria?

Before you say: 'They all got genocided by the Forces of Goodness and Happy Things after the Battle of the Five Armies'...Unlikely.
It is said that 3/4's of the goblin warriors of the north were killed that day, implying that A): 1/4 survived the battle (or didn't attend at all), and B): they left their families/non-warrior orcs behind, leaving both social infrastructure and the security of their mountain/tunnel bases intact for their return.
-Given that the "Great Host" assembled at the Lonely Mountain must have been led by the orcs from Moria (Bolg's orcs), and there were still a bunch of that tribe living in those pits afterwards (reinforcements from Dol Guldur aside; see Balin's re-colonization effort which happened some 40ish years after BoFA, and how many orcs he found in there), there must have been a substantial amount of goblins living in the Grey Mountains and the Hithaeglir.
-Given that orcs have a habit of reproducing like rabbits (though this may be more common when a powerful magic-using creature is encouraging it), 70+ years is enough to cause a population of 1000 (I'm guessing 1000 give or take a few hundred as the 1/4 surviving population) soldier-orcs to grow exponentially. And even if that number stayed relatively the same, battles in ME are often between no more than a few thousand soldiers on each side, meaning that 1000 orcs would still be a welcome addition to any army fielded by Sauron.
This is further supported by the High Pass (where Goblintown is) being described as "watched by the Enemy" during the WotR.

So, what were they doing when Dol Guldur was busy splitting its forces between the two Elvish realms, and the Easterlings were knocking on Erebor's door?

Did Sauron just decide that a few thousand mountain orcs, located very near Thranduil's realm, the Iron Hills, Rivendell, the Beornings, Erebor and Dale were not worth summoning?
Did the orcs genocide themselves in the 70 years between the Battle of Five Armies, and the beginning of the ring war?
Did Sauron forget about them?
Did their Third-Age tradition of doing things on their own and having powerful leaders of their own (Golfimbul, Azog, Bolg, the Great Goblin) lead them to reject Sauron in some sort of orcish political coup?
Did they lose a war/bet/dinner with the Wargs/Cold Drakes/Trolls?
Did Tolkien just...lump them in with orcs from Moria?

06-23-2010, 06:38 PM	#1
Not Yet Dead Newly Deceased Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1	Goblins of the Grey Mts./Northern Misty Mts. during WotR? First of all: First time poster, longish-time reader. 'Sup Downers. Now, Onwards! Tolkien's descriptions of the Battle Under the Trees and the assault on Erebor and Dale during the War of the Ring are not exactly detailed, but they are clear about the participants: Dol Guldur marched a great deal of its people against Thranduil's kingdom (and apparently the Woodsmen/Beornings), while leaving Erebor and Dale to the Easterlings. Orcs from Moria were (I believe) assisting the assault on Lorien. Where were the orcs from the Grey Mountains, and from the Mountains north of Moria? Before you say: 'They all got genocided by the Forces of Goodness and Happy Things after the Battle of the Five Armies'...Unlikely. It is said that 3/4's of the goblin warriors of the north were killed that day, implying that A): 1/4 survived the battle (or didn't attend at all), and B): they left their families/non-warrior orcs behind, leaving both social infrastructure and the security of their mountain/tunnel bases intact for their return. -Given that the "Great Host" assembled at the Lonely Mountain must have been led by the orcs from Moria (Bolg's orcs), and there were still a bunch of that tribe living in those pits afterwards (reinforcements from Dol Guldur aside; see Balin's re-colonization effort which happened some 40ish years after BoFA, and how many orcs he found in there), there must have been a substantial amount of goblins living in the Grey Mountains and the Hithaeglir. -Given that orcs have a habit of reproducing like rabbits (though this may be more common when a powerful magic-using creature is encouraging it), 70+ years is enough to cause a population of 1000 (I'm guessing 1000 give or take a few hundred as the 1/4 surviving population) soldier-orcs to grow exponentially. And even if that number stayed relatively the same, battles in ME are often between no more than a few thousand soldiers on each side, meaning that 1000 orcs would still be a welcome addition to any army fielded by Sauron. This is further supported by the High Pass (where Goblintown is) being described as "watched by the Enemy" during the WotR. So, what were they doing when Dol Guldur was busy splitting its forces between the two Elvish realms, and the Easterlings were knocking on Erebor's door? Did Sauron just decide that a few thousand mountain orcs, located very near Thranduil's realm, the Iron Hills, Rivendell, the Beornings, Erebor and Dale were not worth summoning? Did the orcs genocide themselves in the 70 years between the Battle of Five Armies, and the beginning of the ring war? Did Sauron forget about them? Did their Third-Age tradition of doing things on their own and having powerful leaders of their own (Golfimbul, Azog, Bolg, the Great Goblin) lead them to reject Sauron in some sort of orcish political coup? Did they lose a war/bet/dinner with the Wargs/Cold Drakes/Trolls? Did Tolkien just...lump them in with orcs from Moria?