[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

But the point is that Turin's free agency is limited by his lack moral certainty. He does exhibit pride, and repeatedly rejects the advice of friends and those wiser than himself, but we need to bare in mind that as far as Turin is concerned, the advice of others constitutes only marginally better courses of action than his own decisoin. We may fault Turin for rejecting good advice, but we cannot fault Turin for rejecting divine will. Nowhere in the text is it implied that providential forces are at work in Turin's universe, as they are in LoTR.

Why not? What's the difference between that and the advice of wise people? He rejects advice because he is proud, stubborn, etc, but that doesn't mean that COH is immoral! It means that Turin's morals are not the same as we want them to be or expect them to be.

Given that we know Eru essentially grants the Valar power in Middle-earth, doesn't it follow that all this philosophical wrangling is just insubstantive talk? Well, no. It is true that Eru does give the Valar some kind of temporal authority, but we are never left thinking that he has cut himself off from the world entirely. As far as I understand it, Eru is the Christian god, and therefore must necessarily have certain attributes that the Christian god also possesses. If you argue that he does not possess these attributes, you are in fact admitting that Eru is necessarily imperfect and deistic, something that Tolkien seems not to have intended.

Since when is Eru a mirror image of a Christian God? Tolkien borrowed material from many mythologies and cultures. Eru could be just as well some other god (I don't know that much mythology to discuss this more).


But let's say he is the christian god. Did he abandod the world? No. Like Bethberry said, he didn't competely leave the whole thing to its own devices, but rather watched it without intervening. There is a big difference. He also assigned his underlings (ie Valar+Maiar) to control the situation, so that the whole world won't be destroyed. But they are 'divine humans', if you get my meaning, and also make mistakes. They, unlike Eru, don't know what is ultimately best. Just like the Christian God sends angels, prophets, leaders, etc to help the people when there is trouble.

"Fate" as understood through LoTR, possesses a benevolent teleological quality that works in tandem with characters' free will. The benevolent providential forces that undeniably suffuse the story in LoTR do not exist at the expense of free-will; they work, literally, in mysterious ways. But it is present.

You can also see fate in The Sil and COH. In COH, Turin with his own actions brings about the curse of Morgoth. In The Sil, we see how characters accidentally, but on their own free will destroy Nargothrong and Doriath, leaving Gondolin the last one standing (making a prophecy of fate coe true). Another example: Elwing flew from Doriath, Earendil flew from Gondolin, they met in Cirdan's Haven's, and together saved the world. I wouldn't call this a coincidence!

I made the point that Gandalf is the first to mention that forces other than mere chance may be at work in the case of Frodo's possessing the ring. Given that I had also denied the completely divine authority of Melian and other "angelic" beings, it was pointed out that I can't have it both ways - I must accept that Gandalf also possesses provisional knowledge according to these standards. Indeed he does, but my point was not that Gandalf has a kind of one way cell phone connection to God. He is just the first to make mention of this theme, which is elaborated upon in throughout the novel. The reader is never left to doubt the presence of a benevolent will at work, countering the movements of Sauron in mysterious ways.

Everyone in Beleriand knew that Melian is a Maia. Gandalf kept his true identity as Olorin secret. When Melian spoke, people knew they had a reason to listen, because she knows. Gandalf... well, people knew he's wise, but there are many wise people in ME. Being a wizard doesn't make a difference. He needs to explain that "greater powers are at work", something that those who elian would talk to would understand just by knowing who she is.

I'm not contesting Tolkien's metaphysical explanations; I'm arguing that they are not adequate to just explain away the philosophical issue of the Problem or Evil in Tolkien's works. I've tried to argue that CoH and LoTR present different "moral universes" largely because they present different implicit cosmologies: one in which Eru is effectively present and one in which he is explicitly absent.

You are saying that Eru=fate? I don't think so. Eru knows fate, but he doesn't make it.