[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I was simply responding to some remarks I personally found a little disparaging in describing the disorder.

Ah, I misread you. Sorry. I would add that it is not only disparaging but also disconcerting to compare the disease with the most satanic character in the Legendarium. It wasn't so long ago that people with mental illness were commonly regarded as possessed by the devil and treated horribly as a result.

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't think Melkor's 'lust' was necessarily (just) sexual desire, but perhaps the lust of owning a person in such a way that he clearly demonstrates his power. 'Lust' as simply 'sexual desire' is a pretty neutral feeling. Melkor's hardly neutral or hardly simple instinct. (I tried to express that I thought it was more than just simple sexual lust in my previous post, as well, but obviously it was short and didn't get much of anything across.)

. . .

Wen I read that, I think of lust in a sexual way because Tolkien specifies that Melkor apparently thought of her as 'beautiful,' but in the fuller context, it is more than just a sexual lust. He's bigger plans than that, with a darker heart. I don't have a text to look at and don't remember the story in full so I wonder what his design was that was somehow more dark than anything yet. And I recall the situation being rather strange...that Luthien is sort of distracting Melkor...why would she assume she could distract him? And was it with her physical beauty?

It is confusing in part because the most central feature of Luthien is her beauty and lots of guys other than Beren fall for her, some more honourably than others. And out of her beauty, many things also beautiful can be created. She sings spring into being and is closely aligned with the natural world. Her word can make walls and towers crumble. Her voice is like the voice of nightengales and larks. Her beauty is the beauty of Arda. (See "Of Beren and Luthien"). In at least two instances, Huan speaks in matters related to her, so possibly her light is so strong that it can cause animals to speak. She may even be able to shape shift herself and Beren into other creatures. So that when Melkor conceives his evil lust and dark designs, it is well more than mere sexual desire: here he has a chance, if he captures her and gains control over her, to gain that power over Arda. He would be forcing the uttermost example of beauty to his vile ends. He would be perverting all light and goodness to evil. He wouldn't be just destroying beauty; he would be appropriating it for evil. Speculation, of course, but based on what Luthien is capable of.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Although I agree that one should strongly avoid diagnosing literary characters with psychological illnesses (unless the diagnosis is made in-story), this thread raises an interesting question in my mind, about whether psychological illnesses are possible for Elves.

Now, let me be clear: I am not asking whether Elf X has Psychological Ailment Y. That falls under the general rubric of "impossible to say, because they're literary characters." However, it strikes me that even before one were to address the question of "does Elf X have condition Y," the question should be asked as to whether any Elf could have any psychological ailment.

I love it when a question is redefined.

They are cetainly capable of some brutal behaviours because of various oaths, wraths, etc.--killing their own kin and they do seem to share many emotions with the other Children. There are also differences amongst the elves which might play into your question. Would the dark elves be more susceptible to mental illness?

We are told that Feanor becomes "fey" when "consumed by the flame of his own wrath". Given the context, this sounds closer to the old beserker warrrior mode than mental illness, but attacking Morgoth as he does certainly does sound like he's 'taken leave of his senses.'

Your answer may lie in the hroar/fea discussions about elves, methinks.

Originally Posted by Formy

The second issue is that Elves do not seem to possess the same sort of free will as Men, since they don't share the Gift.

There have been several very important discussions of this amongst Tolkien scholars. Fleiger believes the elves don't have free will, but there have been several responses to her in the pages of Tolkien Studies that argue cogently elves do have free will. (Some of them, at least, do choose to relinguish their bodies.) I suspect Galin would be better able than me to persue this line.

Originally Posted by Formy

can we rule out psychological problems as we know them for the Eldar, or do we have to say they could still have been in play?

I think it might be more fitting to ask what would be a Middle-earth understanding of mental illness.