The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - “Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

Faramir Jones · 08-21-2011, 05:38 PM

The Might has already made reference to the above letter, part of which I think is well worth quoting. It's a letter written by Tolkien in about September 1955 but not sent, to Hugh Brogan, who criticised the archaisms in the LotR chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall', and agreed with a critic's description of it as 'tushery'. As has been pointed out, it's very relevant to this discussion; because in it Tolkien discusses his use of 'moderate or watered archaism', giving a particular passage in LotR, and showing what it would be like in a deliberatly archaic and then in modern English:

The proper use of 'tushery' is to apply it to the kind of bogus 'medieval' stuff which attempts (without knowledge) to give a supposed temporal colour with expletives, such as tush, pish, zounds, marry, and the like. But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. Of course, not being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works in the ancient and 'middle' idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that. But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii, 'The King of the Golden Hall'. 'Nay, Gandalf!' said the King. 'You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.'

This is a fair sample - moderate or watered archaism. Using only words that are still used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: 'Nay, thou (n')wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall...' etc. I know well enough what a modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties' - and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' - if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archism of expression on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used. Like some non-Christian making reference to some Christian belief which did not in fact move him at all. (Letters, Letter 171, pp. 225-6)

08-21-2011, 05:38 PM	#2
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Letter 171 The Might has already made reference to the above letter, part of which I think is well worth quoting. It's a letter written by Tolkien in about September 1955 but not sent, to Hugh Brogan, who criticised the archaisms in the LotR chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall', and agreed with a critic's description of it as 'tushery'. As has been pointed out, it's very relevant to this discussion; because in it Tolkien discusses his use of 'moderate or watered archaism', giving a particular passage in LotR, and showing what it would be like in a deliberatly archaic and then in modern English: The proper use of 'tushery' is to apply it to the kind of bogus 'medieval' stuff which attempts (without knowledge) to give a supposed temporal colour with expletives, such as tush, pish, zounds, marry, and the like. But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. Of course, not being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works in the ancient and 'middle' idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that. But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii, 'The King of the Golden Hall'. 'Nay, Gandalf!' said the King. 'You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.' This is a fair sample - moderate or watered archaism. Using only words that are still used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: 'Nay, thou (n')wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall...' etc. I know well enough what a modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties' - and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' - if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archism of expression on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used. Like some non-Christian making reference to some Christian belief which did not in fact move him at all. (Letters, Letter 171, pp. 225-6)