[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by jallanite

This is the “if I were Tolkien, then I would ...” argument which doesn’t really work. Neither you or I are Tolkien and Tolkien himself changed his mind again and again on many matters. Tolkien loved the works of George MacDonald and then later in life tried reading him again and couldn’t stand him.

Certainly, but still, there are certain patterns of how things are used. Of course you can never know 100%, but if that meant "what we cannot say for certain, we should not make assumptions about", you can resign on trying to make any conclusions whatsoever. There is no 100% telling Tolkien whether did not imagine Balrog having pink wings and blue-striped wig, but it is rather likely that he didn't, based on what we know about him. And that is an assumption made in the same way.

In short, when the tale tells us that Gandalf uses the word Morgul-knife but does not tell exactly what he meant by it, either literally ‘black sorcery’ or the derived name applied in Gondor to Minas Ithil. Both work in the final account. I had at some point in my rereading automatically assumed the ‘black sorcery’ meaning. You at some point assumed the ‘Minas Morgul’ meaning.

Neither of was particularly aware that the other meaning might be applied here.

But once aware of both meanings, I find it impossible to choose between them. Both work.

Agreed. Exactly. But what I believe is, that once you become aware of both the options, you can try to attempt to figure out which of them might be more likely, for one reason or the other. Like you say, it had never occured to me that "Morgul-knife" could mean "Black sorcery-knife" before I saw you propose that, that itself is good, because it challenges set ideas and "automatized" assumptions. But the next step after some new proposal is made is to try to figure out whether there is some evidence for or against both of them (because obviously, Tolkien had one meaning or the other on his mind) and which seems more logical. The final conclusions, again, may possibly differ. But I do not think we can just conclude with saying "we do not know and can never know", because that is rather, well, unconstructive.

Gandalf’s mention of the Morgul-knife appears to first arise in the Fourth Phase version of Frodo’s conversation with Gandalf at Rivendell, although Christopher Tolkien does not present that part of the story. Christopher Tolkien does say in The Treason of Isengard (HOME 7), page 82, that the text is then as in FR except for places where Christopher Tolkien indicates differences. But Minas Morgul is not mentioned in the Council of Elrond for two more versions of the Council. In the version of the Council written to go with this version of the conversation between Frodo and Gandalf even Minas Tirith only appears in a late pencilled change to the manuscript.

Well, and does this indicate anything?