[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Eärendil had been made immortal and purportedly was visible in the sky bearing the last Silmaril as the planet Venus seems to me to adequately account for the mentions made of him by the kings. Eärendil was simply more famed and renowned to them than the others, for his voyages, for reaching Valinor and summoning the forces who finally defeated Morgoth, for becoming with his wife immortal, and for his slaying of the dragon Ancalagon, for which Eärendil’s mortal son Elros was made first King of Númenor.

Naturally one would imagine that in the latter days of Númenor it might have been more clearly brought out by poets that Eärendil, the father of the line of kings, would have chosen to remain mortal. Or it might not. The poets may have chosen to ignore that Eärendil would have become mortal save for the influence of his wife as they were beginning to interpret the old stores as an indication that immortality in the Undying Lands was the right of mortals.

You have changed your train of argument. You are now in agreement, that for the Kings, Earendil was heralded as their foremost ancestor. All you are trying to do now is answer the reason why.

Quite so. And since in the case of the Kings of Númenor it was Eärendil who was considered to be the cause of the foundation of Númenor and was more honoured for his deeds than Elros, it is not surprising at all to me that Eärendil is more mentioned than Elros by the kings descended from him.

The kings were of the House of Elros. I would not go as far as to say he was mentioned more, but he was regarded by the kings at least as their greatest ancestor and mentioned with the most honour. Mentioned more than Elros may not surprise you but what about Luthien?

From Unfinished Tales, page 228:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [father of Erendis] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.¹⁰

10    Cf. The Silmarillion p. 148: ‘The Men of that House [i.e. of Bëor] were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes.’ According to a genealogical table of the House of Bëor Erendis was descended from Bereth, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen mother of Túrin Turambar and of Rían the mother of Tuor.

This does not really tell us anything about the rest of the Numenoreans being blond. The beauty seldom seen in Numenor could be taken as a reference, that she was just exceptionally beautiful and few other women could match her. Erendis is compared to Morwen, the most beautiful woman of the Edain in the first age.

I agree there is a second way to read it; this being that her dark beauty(brunette and grey eyes) was the beauty that was seldom seen, but I am not sure this is what Tolkien intended. There is never any outright statement that the majority of the Numenoreans were blond.

What you posted was:

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

That was what my remark “I doubt it” referred to. I don’t see how anyone could mistake my meaning. I still doubt it. Your quotations do not refer to or even mention Eärendil’s wishing to choose a mortal life style. What then was I wrong about?

Okay, but perhaps you should have been clearer here.

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.

You did say the King's men would not want to think about Luthien and Earendil.

From the chapter “The Council of Elrond”:

Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath.

Elrond traces his lineage both to Eärendil and to Elwing (granddaughter of Lúthen). Your discussion suggests strongly that Elrond doesn’t mention Eärendi at all which is very much not true. And this remark is the only place where Elrond refers to his ancestry.

Of course Elrond was proud of both lines of his ancestry and particularly Earendil. However, in the POME we are told he traced his ancestry through Luthien back to Thingol. Elrond personally considered himself a Sindar rather than a Noldor.

Legolas says:

But nobler is his [Aragorn’s] spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.

Legolas appears to refer to an otherwise untold prophecy concerning the children of Lúthen and so quite naturally mentions Lúthien. Would you insist that Legolas is ignoring Eärendil because he does not awkwardly say, “… the children of Lúthien (through her granddaughter Elwing, Eärendil’s wife)?” Of course in such a mention Legolas does not mention any progenitor but Lúthien.

The prophecy you mention is spoken by Aragorn himself earlier in the story.

Notice that they are called 'Children of Luthien.' They could just as easily be called the children of Thingol, the children of Melian or the children of Dior. It makes little difference in context of the prophecy. Since if Luthien's line will never fail it means neither will the line of Melian, Thingol or Dior.

The fact that Luthien's name alone is mentioned shows that she is considered the primary matriarch of that line.

I don't think we can be in any doubt, that there are two figures held above all the other ancestors of the Numenoreans/Half-elven. The King's men definitely sway to Earendil and we are not told the reason why so I am just speculating. We are given the reason why Elrond does not want to be considered as part of the Noldor.