[Galin]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm always up for some useless pedantry.

LOL. Good!

Suppose, then, that the 'Great Darkness', when, according to Treebeard, the Elves passed over the sea or hid themselves, refers to Melkor's domination of Middle-earth, before the Great March of the Elves into the West. Then the 'Darkness', when the Entwives crossed the Great River, was after Morgoth's return. This would make some sense, actually, for after Morgoth's return, his attention seems to have been directed primarily toward Beleriand, so it seems reasonable for the Entwives to go eastward toward lands where his power was less. And since the first rising of the Sun was not all that long after Morgoth's return, the Entwives can very well give their minds to 'meads in the sunshine'.

Of course, this has the drawback that it relies on a rather forced distinction between the 'Great Darkness' and the 'Darkness'. But I think that an allowance for this can be found in Treebeard's nature. To one as old as he, and one whose pace of life is so slow, the time that passed between the Battle of the Powers and Morgoth's return may not have seemed so very long, especially across the distance of the Second and Third Ages; perhaps he thought of the 'Great Darkness' as encompassing both, with the ages of Melkor's captivity a mere temporary respite.

I like that. Treebeard is arguably simplifying things in the sense of greatly contracting history, and he does seem to quickly jump to the defeat of Morgoth. So something like:

Great Darkness arrives [a time before the Awakening of the Elves].

Treebeard generally notices several things about the Elves: a notable amount pass over Sea, some fled, some hid themselves. But Treebeard would possibly not be aware that Morgoth was taken captive, and so maybe it seems to him that many Elves leave Middle-earth because of the Great Darkness. But not all Elves cross the Sea of course, and later some probably do flee, or hide themselves (underground kingdoms or hidden kingdoms) at points soon before, or soon after, Morgoth's return.

This would allow for the orcs appearing in the Great Darkness, which can still be upon Morgoth's return but before the rising of the Sun, and perhaps with Morgoth's return the Entwives can leave at some point after they enjoy the meads in the Sunshine, as you say.


This generalizes the Great Darkness as far as Morgoth's domination or influence in Middle-earth is concerned, and it seems a bit problematic with respect to the period of Morgoth's captivity. Treebeard, although not noted as one of the Wise and arguably less informed than some, is still said to have had a great memory. Jumping to dates in the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals:

Year 1 (a new reckoning in the light of the Trees)

'But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. (...) Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Orome passed the servants of melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.'

So 'Great Darkness' part one -- part one generally lasting to the Fall of Utumno in year 1099, keeping in mind that these dates are not in regular years, so this is a substantial stretch.

However from 1099 to Morgoth's return is a great stretch too, and Melian councils Thingol that the 'peace of Arda' will not last. But it's interesting that evil stirs again before Morgoth returns, and in 1300-50 the Dwarves tell Thingol that east of the mountains dark elves were fleeing from the plains to the hills, due to fell beasts, as the Valar had not utterly rooted out the evils of the North.

This maybe gives some reason why Eriador wasn't deemed safe enough for the Entwives later, as they pass beyond even the Great River.

1330 And ere long (in the year 1330 according to the annals that were made in Doriath) the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf shapes, and other fell beings of shadow.'

It's noted that the orcs were but few and wary at this point, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting Morgoth's return, as in the 1977 Silmarillion. Here the Sindar become well armed, and driving off all creatures of evil, had peace again. Morgoth retuns in year 1495, and in 1497 assaults Beleriand, now with an increased army of orcs. Year 1500 is the last of this reckoning, and when the Sun arises (SY 1) Morgoth was dismayed and descended into Angband, withdrawing his servants.

In SY 60 Morgoth tries the strength of the Elves, and the Noldor and Sindar have a great victory, and set the Seige of Angband, which lasted wellnigh 400 years, but still Morgoth sent his orcs to war in year 155 for example, and Glaurung issues in SY 260 for another, and bitter fighting in the north-marches is noted for SY 402. And in SY 455 'here came an end of peace and mirth'

So even though Morgoth was generally held in check, his influence was still being felt in Middle-earth after his return -- in reference to Treebeard's contraction of a Great Darkness I mean.

Athough I do find the time from Morgoth's captivity in 1099 to 1300 a notable stretch to include within the Great Darkness, again keeping in mind that each of these years is almost 10 years of the Sun. Sauron was still in Middle-earth, but in Myths Transformed it is noted that when Melkor was made captive Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth, and 'secretly repaired Angband' for Morgoth's return, breeding orcs to man Morgoth's host.


On the other hand, such a distinction -- that the Great Darkness had even a notable gap of relative peace -- arguably doesn't need to be accounted for here: Treebeard is speaking to two Hobbits (and in a sense, the reader), and generally speaking it was the same Morgothian influence that impacted the Elves as impacted the Entwives, and so the tale gets its general message across in any case.