[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I do not follow you here. I was asserting that even when the Numenoreans distanced themselves from the elves, they still held Earendil in the highest of honour.

Assert away at thing I don’t disagree with. But if you make up, as you did, things that involve understanding my own mind being changed, then expect the same nonsense back,

Why was NUmenor a sexist society? Numenor is not a medieval society and is wrong to assume that Medieval societies only traced their line through the male lineage. King Stephen inherited the throne through his mother and many lands in Europe were inherited through the female line.

All societies in Tolkien’s Middle-earth of which Tolkien tells us are sexist societies, with male genealogies of the royal houses. Númenor is probably the least so, but even there according to the New Law of Succession, if princesses refused to accept the throne, then the throne would be bestowed on the next male heir.

As to medieval European lands, do you deny that female succession in areas where straightforward succession by lineage dominated was very rare? Do you deny that male succession was the norm? I think not.

Luthien is held in higher esteem than the other two and IS singled out as the fore-mother of her descendants.

Never denied it. Never. Though I can’t help pointing out that most married women are foremothers of their descendants. That alone is not a great achievement

They are called the Children of Luthien, which you seem to ignore.

I have had not reason to mention “the Children of Lúthien” in this post. But either did you, before the last post. So blame yourself also if there is any blame. What else am I to be falsely blamed for not mentioning and so seeming to ignore?

Your accusation that I was purposely avoiding “the Children of Lúthien” was a false accusation. Please apologize. I do respect in Tolkien’s work the high value he attributes to “the Children of Lúthien”.

Except Tolkien does write that Erendis was a great beauty even for that time. Tracing her descent to the House of Beor would draw comparisons Morwen and Turin. Morwen the fairest woman and Turin the fairest man.

I notice you carefully don’t point out where my parsing of Tolkien’s sentence was wrong or that Tolkien uses the phrase “kind of beauty”. I still see my parsing as correct, confirmed by your inability to to even being to demonstrate what is wrong with it.

By tracing her ancestry and the words he used to describe, he immediately draws the comparison.

You draw the comparison, not Tolkien’s words. I don’t find your skimming over my parsing as an acceptable comment, unless you are intending to indicate that you can’t contradict my comments. What is wrong with my comments? Of course I see that you can’t find anything wrong with them and are stuck on the wrong side of an argument. So just admit you are wrong.

If I am not mistaken the text actually refers to Morwen too.

As I thought, there is footnote and the her close relation to Morwen and Turin is noted.

The footnote is an addition by Christopher Tolkien and I don’t see any connection made by Christopher Tolkien between Morwen and the “kind of beauty” that his father mentions. Christopher Tolkien does not even mention in the note that Morwen was famed for beauty. Christopher Tolkien does mention the hair and eyes of the House of Bëor. It is implied strongly by Tolkien that this hair and eye-colour was common to many of the House of Bëor. Christopher Tolkien quite naturally includes the information on Morwen from a previously unprinted table by his father.

Christopher Tolkien is not writing about what his father meant by “a kind of beauty” so far as I can see.

So you don't have any other quote except one interpretation of the text, which when looked at the full context could mean something else entirely.

No it can’t, unless you choose to ignore what Tolkien wrote, especially the words “a kind of beauty”.

Especially since Aldarion himself is noted for being blond, which implies his father and perhaps the older kings of Numenor were not.

I see no implication of any kind in this argument from silence. You ought to know better than to claim that an argument from silence can prove anything.

Do you now believe that most Númenórians weren’t blond? That seems to me to be very wrong, even from what is written in The Silmarillion, especially in light of your first post.

Even if the prophecy was given about Luthien, this still does not change it's application to Thingol.

I never claimed it did. But in fact this prophecy is given of Lúthien. But erhaps what the books say is what matters and I will keep to that. I can equally put back on you that even if the prophecy was given about Lúthien it still does not change such application as it has to the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing.

Really what about Haleth. At present I don't have my books, but will provide the quotes.

Nothing about Haleth. I never mentioned her and neither did you.

I never said Elrond did not recognise his Noldor ancestry, but he preferred to his Teleri ancestry and traced his lineage to Thingol rather than Turgon.

Prove this. The facts are that in a single statement Elrond didn’t happen to mention Turgon, but only Eärendil among his ancestors. But one statement is not enough to prove anything, especially what you want to prove. There is not sufficient data.

Hence, I doubt.

Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.

It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Lúthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. -The People of Middle Earth

Here he outright tells us the reason why Luthien is considered to be head of the line over even Finwe and Elwe. Luthien is the most noble and that is why she is held first.

Neither of these two sentences tells that Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol. Neither sentence even mentions Elrond. You are unaccountably inventing the information that “Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.” That is a false claim without more evidence, which you seemingly do not have.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

Neither sentence states that Lúthien is “held first” genealogically or “head of the line″. There are two separate lines and Lúthien is not related to the kin of Turgon except through a descendant, Elwing. Lúthien is the most renowned of the Elves which I knew well from these and other passages previously. What you have provided is what I already know plus some incorrect statements by yourself that have no value.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

How do you expect to maintain your claim on obviously false statements?

Further oddities in these sentences which merely note in passing: The second sentence mentions Ingwë and Finwë who are only connected to the Half-elven through Eärendil grandson of Turgon (descended from Finwë) by Elenwë of the Vanyar who I suppose might be some kindred of Ingwë, though that is dubious. Olwë’s relation to the Half-elven is also claimed but no relationship is given, except through Thingol. Perhaps that is what Tolkien meant in this second case.

The Numenoreans kings choosing Earendil over Luthien is therefore surprising

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Why should this surprise me? The patriarchal lineage of the line of Núnenor runs directly up to Elros, son of Eärendil, son of Tuor. There is nothing surprising in the Kings of Númenor honouring the father and grandfather of their line of kings. Nothing at all. Especially considering Eärendil’s fame.

It only surprises you because you imagine that the Kings of Númenor spectacularly don’t honour Lúthien. But you can imagine anything you want though you ought not to make claims that you spectacularly can’t support.

Tolkien writes very little about the rites and entertainments of Númenor and so anyone can produce anything they want in fan fiction. I see you are pushing more than I know. Naturally I doubt. And arguments that don’t support you don’t help your case.

Yes Lúthien was very famed for helping to steal the Silmaril from Morgoth and rescuing her husband and herself from death. I don’t deny any of this and I never have. I do deny that one statement from Elrond and two from Kings of Númenor are sufficient to draw any firm conclusions. So I continue to doubt.