[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Hello.

Firstly, I must say, this is my first topic, so a welcome would be appreciated.

I have been a huge fan of Lord of the Rings for a number of years, although I have not read the books, but I did get half - way into The Hobbit twice, then, for a reason I don't know why, but I stopped.

Secondly, I must point out, before I ask my question, that Sauron, is my absolute favourite character ever to be created. Call my sadistic if you will, but I watched Lord of the Rings the Return of the King today, (for about the 100th time, no joke, I watch one of the movies each night), and when I saw his tower crumble, I felt depressed, and still do to this moment.

## How did you feel when Utumno & Thangorodrim fell ?

Lately, I have been researching a lot about Sauron, Melkor, the Void and all the other related stuff, and it depresses me even more that I know that Sauron can NEVER take physical form again.

Is this really true?

Couldn't Eru resurrect him, or give him some power?

## Sauron - like Melkor - reduces himself to what he becomes. It is his own doing, and his own fault. AFAICS, he is a "mini-Melkor", a "shadow of his [Melkor's] malice". ISTM that Ainur (including the Maiar) have a certain "spiritual" "critical mass": if one goes wrong often enough, or severely enough, one has wasted or ruined so much of the goodness & power native to one in one's origin, that one cannot be restored.

Morgoth wastes his power in this way - until he reaches a point at which he cannot change his bodily form. He is stuck with it. Considering that he was the greatest of the Valar, and that they are able to present in many different ways, this is a terrible loss. But it is no worse than that "all love had departed from him for ever". By choosing pride, envy, hatred, arrogance, desire to be a lord over other wills (no matter how much misery that meant for them), he has diminished & ruined himself. The body he's left with is not even invulnerable - Fingolfin & Thorondor give him permanent wounds. And he alone of the Valar knows fear.

By seeing what becomes of Morgoth, we have clues to what happens to Sauron. Sauron is less in power and majesty & gifts than Morgoth was - he is equally ruined, but there was less in him to be ruined. His native strength in his beginning was not as great, so in that sense he is less spoiled. But as to being overthrown, his overthrow is equally final.

At the end of the First Age, Sauron could still "repent" - & he may have been sincere. He had a lot of very serious stuff of which to repent. But he "fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong". He is not as wholly inexcusable as Morgoth. The implication - to judge from that, & from other remarks of Tolkien - is that Sauron was not beyond redemption. Not yet. Just as Saruman very nearly repented. So Sauron had not yet ruined himself. But - over a long period of time - he did. The process (if there was one) is not clear - but he seems to have "gone bad" for ever at least by the Downfall of Numenor. It is after that event, that he can no longer appear in a fair form, or as Annatar - his bodily form is temporarily destroyed. His ability to take a fair form, is destroyed for ever - the body he makes for himself in Mordor after the Downfall is "black and hideous", and his eye is "terrible". And when he is overthrown by Gil-galad & Elendil, Isildur is able to cut off one of Sauron's fingers; Sauron's hand "was burning hot, and so Gil-galad died". And this was while Sauron had the Ring: even that did not stop his being overthrown; though at a great cost.

After the First Age, Sauron does not appear until abt. 500 S.A. After the Downfall - how long he needed to form a body is not said. He can't have taken longer than 122 years at most. But after the War of the Last Alliance, he seems to be no problem for at least 1,000 years. This suggests that each defeat needs more energy for him to get over the defeat, & that he has less energy to start from.

When the Ring is destroyed, maybe the life & energy & will of Sauron within it is dispersed - so, is not available for him to take a new form, however hideous. The description of the "passing" of Sauron, which is echoed in what happens to Saruman, is important here. The wind that disperses the shadow, "vast but impotent" of Sauron, is anticipated by the "cold wind" on which he returns to Mordor from the Downfall - the fall of Barad-dur is described in much the same terms as the destuction of Numenor.

The faery-tale motif of the giant whose heart is hidden in some inaccessible object separate from his body is probably at work here. The giant is immortal so long as the hero or heroine can't find the object that holds his heart - but no longer.

I heard that The Blue Wizards were some sort of necromancers and that someone said that they could bring Sauron back. True?

## Two of the Wizards, Alatar & Pallando, may have fallen into necromancy - UT suggests the possibility, but not state as fact that they did. "Bring Sauron back ?" Not heard that one - I suppose it's possible - maybe.

What about the last battle? Dagor Dagorath. I read that Melkor, will break open the Doors of Night and him and Sauron shall escape the Void, destroy the moon and the sun, and that all evil things will fight with the free people's and that Sauron will be in it as well.

Does anyone know if Sauron will dies during the battle? Does he even have a physical form then?

Would he have his power back or will be be extremely weak?

Would they destroy him forever? So he has no spirit form or physical form, so he is basically dead? Please not let this be true, he deserved to rule ME in my opinion.

## That would mean misery for his slaves. His moral character disqualifies him. Manwe Sulimo rules all Arda, including ME - that is far better.

I really hope that he can come back, impossible? Probably. :'(

Sorry if this is in the wrong section of the forum.

Thanks in advance!

## Sauron is "crippled" [as mentioned above] - he can't come back while the world endures (& just as well !) and (presumably) while the Valar are enthroned. Morgoth, who is far mightier in origin, & scope of power, than Sauron, can't - so Sauron can't. If the mightiest of the Valar is Outside in the Void, and cannot return - the mightiest of his servants, who is a Maia, can't do so. So how come Morgoth can return ? I'll go out on a limb here, and suggest that the Dagor Dagorath can happen only because Eru, to whose wisdom all things are "tributary", so wills. Presumably the other purposes of Eru in Arda will ben completed by then. So Morgoth's malice (& Sauron's) would still be under the control of Eru, and (despite their intentions) be means by which Eru does his will. As the Ainulindale puts it:

""And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined....And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory""

All this applies to Sauron's intentions too.

Sauron is "not of mortal flesh" - unlike the Numenoreans. He's a spirit. He can't die. Which is how he survived the Downfall, when they did not.

FWIW, I've only just joined (3 days ago !), but "Welcome", anyway

Hope that helps