[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?

It is said that he is an Elf, or of the Eldar.

"Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind" [RotK, App. A]

"Elrond chose to be among the Elves." [Letter #153]

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves.

This is the quote you gave:

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

First of all, Arwen never chose to be an Elf, which makes your quote irrelevant. Secondly, the quote you gave about Arwen, who never chose to be an Elf, is not about Elrond NOT BEING an Elf. Try again please.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Again, they were both Half-elven due to their descent, ""in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] However, since they were given a choice to choose their doom, that of Men or of Elves, Elrond chose that of Elven-kind and Elros that of Man-kind. Here's an interesting passage to that effect about the effect the choice had on the Half-elven, at least in the case of Elros:

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the 'seeking else-whither,' as the Eldar called it, the 'weariness' or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

In effect, Elros became a Man, and in like manner Elrond an Elf. Even still they were Half-elven due to their ancestry, they came from both Men and Elves, but they were given the choice to become either Man or Elf, and both chose one of these Dooms or Fates.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Although you are quoting texts from the Hobbit that are written before LotR was conceived, if you want to be fair, Elrond is given various qualities in that quote, even of Dwarves and of Summer.

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." [The Hobbit, ch. 3, p. 51]

In the History of the Hobbit, by John Ratliff it is said,

"The reference only two chapters before to Beren and Lúthien’s activities of less than a century ago – a mere nothing in the elvish scheme of things – and the very presence of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside ‘to see the elves’ dance and sing) and seems not to have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long-lived at this point, argues against a long gap in time between Gondolin’s fall and Mr. Baggins’ adventure... By that scheme, Mr. Baggins’ unexpected party would have occurred no more than 14 years after the fall of Thangorodrim, which is clearly exceedingly improbable. These difficulties probably led to Tolkien’s deletion of the references to Beren and Lúthien’s adventure, which together with Elrond’s undefined status and nature enable Gondolin and its ruin to recede into the distant, legendary past." [ch. 3 Rivendell]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are.

I have no idea what this has to do with the quoted portion of my text you responded to. I never even made mention of anyone changing their destiny after death.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

He remained Half-elven by ancestry, but he became an Elf when he chose his Doom or Fate, just as Elros became a Man after he chose his Fate.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves.

Elrond is said to be an Elf.

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal.

Half-elven by ancestry, but a Man.

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress?

No, you're saying I am, nothing new there.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Like Prato in 1512? What mean you?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Does not matter

Yes it does, so I repeat, "Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there

Where? Quotes please. It is said, "and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power too, of another kind, in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege" [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 1, p. 269] There is no mention of Rivendell standing last due to its power.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

Sauron was marching his way across Eriador to "take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings" [UT, part ll, ch. 4] Though he "attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" as he made his way from the south of Eriador, his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon" which was basically what he was on his way to doing while clearing a path and "ravaging as he went".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

A better rule is never leave an army at your back.

Which is why he left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] He was not going to sit there and focus all his energies on a siege of Rivendell when "his immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] The siege was not laid to overrun Rivendell. So, I'm not saying he did not leave a siege but rather he left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." You're saying he left it to overrun Rivendell, I'm saying he left it "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

Because their immediate and main purpose was to take out Sauron, who was there.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon

Which is not the same as "it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon". Fighting on the borders of Lindon is not invading Lindon. Again I ask you where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon. Sauron, "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Lindon was across the river. He did not invade Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

It is said, "in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." This even with a weakened force that Sauron brought to get the Rings. That was his immediate purpose, and the reason he left another force besieging Rivendell was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take over Rivendell. Show me where it says the purpose of the siege was otherwise.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take Rivendell.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] since "his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind.

To take the Rings.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest does not mean more powerful.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

I have no idea where you are going with this. You're bringing all this other stuff up when all I said was that Glorfindel was not the only Elf to slay a Maia. You don't need to defend so hard that he was a powerful Elf. I never denied he was. All I said was, "I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this." You're going on Glorfindel being the most powerful because of a text that says he "was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandlad had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer." [POM-E, ch. 8] This indicates uncertainty through the use of "it would seem". I'm of the opinion that all this means is that even though Glorfindel is reborn there were still others of comparable power who were not reborn, so far as we know, who were sent out with him and it does not definitely mean he was the most powerful.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

How was it a stalemate when he got killed and Gothmog beat him? Do you know what stalemate means? Gothmog and the other Balrog won hence no stalemate. He was alone, they jumped him, Gothmog crushed his skull and they partied on his corpse.

"Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective.

It most certainly does as it implies he was not a Man to be messed with, and if he was it was to your detriment.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power.


Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

Luthien is the greatest due to her deeds with Beren and all the descendants of Luthien, whose line shall never fail as Legolas says, & "Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME

This being a note appended to, "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor" [POM-E, The Shibboleth of Feanor] in reference to Fëanor/Galadriel.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

[Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

Beren took a Silmaril from Morgoth, not Luthien, "he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril." [Sil., ch. 19, p. 219]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath.

The quote was not about those who remained from the War of Wrath. In fact the quote comes several pages after we begin with, "Thus began the third Age of the World" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 365] Glorfindel was one of the Elves who remained in M-E, and those who remained in M-E either were born there, or came from Aman as Galadriel and Glorfindel did [twice].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age?

You do realize that not only myself, but you, are taking the texts that have Glorfindel coming early in the 2nd Age? You're backed into a corner. Please don't squirm, work what we came to the party with. Let's be open and honest, you are consistently bringing up how Glorfindel played a huge part in the battle with Sauron in the 2nd Age where he came to aid Elrond. Or do you really want to drop all that to switch it all up and now only work with "up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age"? It's up to you buddy.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

Show me that the quote referred to Elves who remained after the War of Wrath exclusively.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel.

To Frodo who had met Glorfindel, correct? Also an audience only familiar with about 3 Elves by name in LotR until that point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

So you're going to switch from his heroics and helping Elrond in the 2nd Age to he only arrived in the 3rd? Really? You're trying to confuse me more with your nonsense? In POM-E we have C.T. say,

"The second essay, Glorfindel II, is a text of five manuscript pages which undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval; but a slip of paper on which my father hastily set down some thoughts on the matter presumably came between them, since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf, 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.' At the end of this note he wrote the words 'Numenorean ship', presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea."

I believe you said in one of your posts, I'm not sure where I saw it, that you actually subscribe to this view, that he arrived in the 2nd Age to aid Elrond. Now you're switching it up.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate,

That is, however, what you said.

"Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates"

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

I'd say it's Glorfindel used because he is the Elf Frodo is familiar with, with whom his experience associates a great Elf to this point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

You're flip-flopping.