[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think this is a serious possibility: the incredibly aged, invisible body simply collapsed into decomposed matter. This is similar to how I think Gollum's belief that he would "die into dust" might be taken literally. It is possible that he expects that his body will virtually disintegrate instantly if the Ring is destroyed.

At the same time, however, I can't help but feel that jallanite has a point regarding the "nothingness" which supposedly constituted a Nazgûl unrobed. Frodo experiences the Eye of Sauron as a "pit, a window into nothing." In a metaphorical sense, this symbolises, I would argue, the idea that Sauron's tyranny and evil are symptomatic of a fundamental "emptiness" and "hollowness" which originated with Melkor and which Professor Tolkien argued had inevitably infected Sauron to a degree. This "nihilism" seems to have constituted a kind of empty, meaningless, pointless wrath and hatred for all life (and of God) which manifested as a "lust for destruction". It represents, to me, the attitude of a mind which has reached the point where it is incapable of interacting with the world except through efforts to dominate it and eventually destroy it. Fire emanates from the rim of the eye, the point of contact between nothingess and "thingness" (if you'll pardon the clumsiness of that expression).

In a metaphysical sense, I would argue that it's possible that the Ringwraiths embody that "nihilism" as a consequence of their artificially prolonged existence. Their physical forms perhaps transmute to a kind of "wraith-matter" for want of a better term: invisible, only partially substantial, and so deeply unnatural at a fundamental level that it inspires depression, terror and loathing in mortals who encounter it. It might be compared to the Unlight of Ungoliant. Perhaps when the Wraith was killed, the "shell" of physical tangibility, like the fire which burned from the Eye, collapses, and all that remains is an invisible emptiness which expires unnoticed, at least to mortal eyes.

I was just looking at a blog which compares Ungoliant's Unlight to a Manichean account of evil as a "thing in itself" as opposed to an Augustinian or Boethian account of evil as the "absence of good". Shippey has argued that The Lord of the Rings blends both concepts. I think the same idea could be extended to things like the Wraiths. One could combine the idea of "evil as absence" and "evil as presence" to form, if this makes sense, "evil as the absence which has presence" or "evil as the thing which is nothing". Perhaps that's redundant, but I feel as if metaphysical explanations can be quite effective in trying to understand some of Professor Tolkien's representations.

I love discussions about Tolkien's etymology and linguistics, especially about 'un'. Galadriel was 'unfriends' with Feanor FOR EVER - that one makes me smile to this day.

Unlight. Does that mean one sees that with Unsight? The Unseen of the Wraith. And what is the relationship to Evil - of the ringwraith.

To go for a 'vibe' argument, Tolkien uses Evil by presence--yet--achieves that by metaphysical substances -- and -- by absence. Nazgul, Orc, Wraith - absence of essences of Ea, or Ea's essences running in the inverse (e.g. unlife/undead things). Ungoliant and Unlight. Metaphysical syphon, it seems she was. Unlight implies, to me, the channeling of light -- out of -- Arda into the Void.

Yet the evil of the Wraith - was grounded in the Evil of choice of Men. Greed, lust, vanity. Self-serving motivations. Sexual perversity, no doubt as well. Pleasure - for the self - at the expense of life itself. As men, prior to wraith-dom, their acts were much like those of the sociopath and psychopath of our world. Primary reinforcers of behaviour--thrill, greed, lust, and pleasure. Sadistic pleasure, such as Sauron's torments.

Is the evil of the Nazgul which straddles the metaphysical, beyond the physical really more than just a 'sociopath with a dark spell'? These are all, it seems to me, acts of predation and feeding--Sauronically--meant enslavement and feasting on flesh. Orcs, so it seems did much the same, as Tolkien so said and implied - feasting on manflesh.

A strange duality, in the mythology, don't you think though--when we chuck in Maeglin's creepy dad, Eol, who was (I've said this at these boards before), was chucked off the cliffs by crazy, creepy Elves as well. I mean wt? was that--ha?? Turgon rules that Eol should be tossed of a cliff?

I dunno - sometimes the whole 'good evil' thing gets a little fuzzy in Tolienian mythology.