[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmm, Legolas is right. I hadn't noticed that; Ulmo was by no means more powerful than Manwe, although he can be said to have followed 'Illuvatar's purpose' rather better, for the First Age, in that he never forsook the people of Middle-Earth as did Valinor.

But then remember, Secret Fire, that they all had their part to play in the events of the world. This sort of concept is one that I stand by, and thus I would not say at all that Manwe was somewhat distanced from Eru's designs in this period. Ulmo's job here was to provide a means of not closing Middle-Earth to the Valar completely, but think of Manwe as well.

Manwe had the strongest link to Illuvatar, and understood the most of his purposes, out of all the Ainur. In terms of power he was said to be mightiest -- apart from Melkor, for

Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor... and of old they were brethren in the mind of Illuvatar.

Manwe and Melkor represent opposites, the two extreme powers. Manwe percieves and falls in with Eru's design to the fullest, and works there; Melkor is outside it, or so he and others think (although indeed 'he that ateempteth this shall find that he is but mine instrument in the end'), and works utterly for evil and moves away from the plan of perfection.

But Manwe is the closest to Illuvatar, a concept that is there from the beginning of the Valar's conception by Tolkien. With him in this is Ulmo, to repeat Legolas's quote

And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.

They are different though. Manwe appears to see the further into, and be more unified with, the mind of Illuvatar than Ulmo; although both are true to his designs.

From the Lost Tales there is a valuable passage (Book one provides much insight into the Valar that was largely never lost, although omitted). It goes something like this.

And Manwe walks the upper paths of Ilwe, and sees Arda from above, at which height not a trace of its sound can be heard... and at these times he is very close to Illuvatar.

Manwe seems the closest to Eru. Ulmo is rather different, but just as loyal.

I probably should have made this post before instead of welcoming you, eh, especially if you've already been welcomed a time ago [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But there you are. That seems like the way it is.

[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]