[Legolas]

When did this occur? The Nazgul did not command the battle of the pelenor fields after the Witchking died and it is extremely unlikely that they were commanding the battle in front of the black gate from the air. This would hardly be efficient. So which battle did they command?

When would it not occur? With the Witch-King gone and Sauron being undoubtedly familiar with the capabilities of the Nazgul, if necessary, he would place his will behind them.

This would hardly be efficient.

Um...what? Whether you think it to be efficient or not, the Witch-King was doing it.

I never disputed that the Witchking was ranked higher. The Lieutenant quote comes from after the Witchking's demise.
There is no indication whatsoever in the books that Dol Guldur would be a more senior post than Barad Dur.

You did miss the point again - if the Mouth of Sauron was second in command, I assert that he would've been given his own post already (like Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul) as opposed to being the Lt. of Barad-dur where Sauron was...Barad-dur was under Sauron's direct supervision (as in his physical presence was there).

Since he states the fact that he is to be Sauron's lieutenant to be a fact and there is NOTHING in the text to dispute this, your statement above is unfactual and therefore not really applicable.

Treebeard states the fact that he is oldest. There's nothing there to prove him wrong; same with Tom. It's not until Tolkien writes a letter back to a reader that we find that Treebeard is not as wise as he thinks - Tolkien never wrote a letter about the Mouth because no one questioned him about said character. However, Tolkien makes an important note in that letter - Treebeard as well as any other character in the story (though least of all Gandalf) is just that - a character - and not Tolkien himself, the author. It also does not mean we can't observe his character and make such judgements on our own. I don't deny that the Mouth was the Lt. of Barad-dur (since that is, in fact, stated by the author), but:

I was discussing whether he was now the lieutenant of the whole of Sauron's forces which his statement suggests he is.

I still don't see where it is suggested that he is the Lt. over ALL of Sauron's forces, and...

Since he states the fact that he is to be Sauron's lieutenant to be a fact and there is NOTHING in the text to dispute this,

...simply being Sauron's "lieutenant" does not mean he is second in command.

Looking in the Messenger's eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.

This is the only hint I see, but it is not a statement by the Mouth; it is merely a mention of the twinkle in his eye, thinking himself to be that one to dwell in Isengard. Would he definitely be that one? We don't know. Would that person definitely be second in commmand? We're not positive.

Then the Messenger of Mordor laughed no more.

Surely no messenger would be second in command.

while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.

If simply being stated to be "Sauron's lieutenant" makes the Mouth of Sauron second in command, so too is Khamul - this can't be right, for Khamul is "second to the Chief," "the Second Chief" for there is one who outranks him.

‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’

your statement above is unfactual

Does this not show the Mouth's big head? It clearly does.

The reason I stated that was that I said that the Nazgul (Witchking apart) did not have any iniative of their own and referenced the fact that Sauron did not use them to lead his armies. someone replied that Khamul commanded Dol Guldur, hence my response that this was only during the lead up to the war, not during.

Sauron can place his will behind them...instruct them to do something. That quote does not mean that the Nazgul have no battle commanding authority at all. Additionally, nowhere is it stated that the Mouth of Sauron could, nor does he even participate in battles that we know of.

[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]