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Old 10-17-2003, 01:04 AM   #6
Eurytus
Wight
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: England
Posts: 179
Eurytus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

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In interest of time, I'll stick to my main concern: you have not yet shown me where Tolkien says the Mouth of Sauron will be the ruler of Isengard. Still waiting on that.
"Liked the way you ignored" the following indisputable points:
I 'ignored' them because they were, in my view, obviously wrong and I wanted to address those points that seemed to me to be better placed for discussion but since you insist.....

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Khamul is called "Sauron's lt." even though it is clear that the Witch-King outranks him - this is a clear indication that the title of "lieutenant" does not mean that he (or anyone referred to as such) is second in command, nor is there only one lieutenant.
I actually did not ignore this point, I addressed it several times but for whatever reason you seem to take no notice of this. It would be more accurate were you to say Khamul WAS Sauron's lieutenant. At the time of LOTR there is no indication that he remained so. Remember he dwelt at Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant. When he left Dol Guldur there is no indication that he kept the lieutenant role, and no reason to do so.

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No, it shows that the Mouth thinks being a spokesman for a godlike entity is of greater worth than being king of a kingdom that he believes is about to be destroyed.
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While Gandalf is sent from the King of Arda, far closer to God than Sauron?

With Manwe's 'messenger' being on the same level as Sauron, even, and said to be the only one in Middle-earth who could defeat him...
Out of interest where does it say that Gandalf can defeat Sauron or is even on the same level?
As to the rest of the point, in no way does your response invalidate my point. There is no inidication that Sauron knew exactly what Gandalf was. He knew of him but may well not have known his true nature. After all this was a reason behind the Istari cloaking their true power.
There is even less likelihood that the Mouth knew who Gandalf was.

Of course even if he did he would still consider his master as more powerful than any of the other Maiar.

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And most of all
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Looking in the Messenger's eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.
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This is the only hint I see, but it is not a statement by the Mouth; it is merely a mention of the twinkle in his eye, thinking himself to be that one to dwell in Isengard. Would he definitely be that one? We don't know. Would that person definitely be second in commmand? We're not positive.

I find this a very out-of-place point:
You find this a very out of place point? It was your point. That's your post. And the one its answering was not mine. I can't see how it's relevant.

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Sauron himself fits that very description.
If he did then it further strengthens the case for the Mouth's role at Isengard. However I do not recall any indication that Sauron's nature was the same as the Nazgul.
Either way it does not erode my position.
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