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***Sharkû*** · 10-26-2003, 04:51 PM

Diamond, your post coincides beautifully with what I have been preparing, therefore I have little to add.
Most of what you said can be supported by Tolkien's views from Myths Transformed, HoME X, 5, from which all following quotes are, many from the Melkor-Morgoth-essay:

"Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru."
For 'sinful' one could read 'immoral' here. Note that flawed actions are, however, sinful when the person does not have the conscious purpose of serving Eru.

"[T]he mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his [Morgoth's] true primeval nature."
Repentance is 'divine'.

"[E]vil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, hated him [Morgoth] too."
All evil creatures and persons hate. Hate rules out happiness. Constantly immoral beings cannot be happy in Eä.

"Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular."
Ultimate evil coincides with ultimate un-happiness: a desire that can never be fulfilled.

Conscious rejection of Eru and his creation, to the extent of Melkor, but also on a smaller scale, would be a hatred that could never be satisified. In the end, everything is within Eru's design, after all.

Note, however, that not all immoral actions include rejection of Eru's will, certainly not consciously so. Nevertheless it is correct that they stem from that.

n.b. I actually don't think it is very necessary to apply Christian philosophy to Eä, simply because Tolkien never described a Christian Eä, but a monotheistic one, long before the (apparently eventual) coming of Christ to Middle-earth. Of course, that might just be paying too much attention to terminology.

[ October 26, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

10-26-2003, 04:51 PM	#11
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Diamond, your post coincides beautifully with what I have been preparing, therefore I have little to add. Most of what you said can be supported by Tolkien's views from Myths Transformed, HoME X, 5, from which all following quotes are, many from the Melkor-Morgoth-essay: "Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru." For 'sinful' one could read 'immoral' here. Note that flawed actions are, however, sinful when the person does not have the conscious purpose of serving Eru. "[T]he mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his [Morgoth's] true primeval nature." Repentance is 'divine'. "[E]vil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, hated him [Morgoth] too." All evil creatures and persons hate. Hate rules out happiness. Constantly immoral beings cannot be happy in Eä. "Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular." Ultimate evil coincides with ultimate un-happiness: a desire that can never be fulfilled. Conscious rejection of Eru and his creation, to the extent of Melkor, but also on a smaller scale, would be a hatred that could never be satisified. In the end, everything is within Eru's design, after all. Note, however, that not all immoral actions include rejection of Eru's will, certainly not consciously so. Nevertheless it is correct that they stem from that. n.b. I actually don't think it is very necessary to apply Christian philosophy to Eä, simply because Tolkien never described a Christian Eä, but a monotheistic one, long before the (apparently eventual) coming of Christ to Middle-earth. Of course, that might just be paying too much attention to terminology. [ October 26, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]