[the phantom]

Some sort of religious belief is the only thing that would compel everyone, without exception, to behave morally.

Child of the 7th Age, Bethberry, and others appear to have translated the meaning of this statement incorrectly. It doesn't say that religion is the only thing that can compel someone, it says that religion is the only thing that can compel everyone.

In other words, I'm not discounting the ability of other factors that cause someone to behave morally, I'm saying that religion appears to be the only thing that could compel those "exceptions" that SPMan and I were discussing (those "exceptions" being people who can derive their contentment from immoral acts).

I hope this makes my statement more clear. I should use more careful wording next time.

Such behaviour would not, in fact, reflect a moral understanding but simply bullied fear.

You are focusing merely on the eternal punishment aspect of religion. What about those who behave morally in order to please their creator because they are thankful for the existance that they have been given?

but I also believe that punishment here on earth can compel some people to act morally

Agreed. That's why we have laws.

The list is long and horrifyingly brutal of immoral behaviour which has been inspired by, supported by or otherwise condoned by religious belief.

And as I said earlier, there are some religions that seem immoral in their nature, and who knows what to do with them. But often, those that are acting immorally in the name of religion are doing so against the fundamental beliefs of their religion.

For instance, if someone who claims to be Christian regularly blows people up with bombs in the name of Christianity, is that person really a Christian?

I thought that mark12_30 summed this up well-

A Fransiscan monk who commits murder is acting despite his religion, not because of it. To blame an atrocity on the religion to which its perpetrators belong, when the religion expressly forbids such an act, is hardly a fair judge of the religion.

An estute observation, mark.

I have, in my own personal experience, seen Atheists behave with more courtesy, decency respect for human life and with less ambitious greed to dominate other people than those who claim religious belief.

Most certainly, but as I said before the behavior of those who claim religious belief is not necessarily following the doctorine of their belief.

Large, grand sounding abstractions such as "moral behaviour" and "immoralitty" need to be closely and carefully defined in any discussion.

And this is another huge question I have. Is it really possible to define moral behavior? If we use religion, there are several religions so can we pick one to impose on everyone? If we don't use belief in a higher authority then what do we use? Our own definition? That wouldn't be good because not everyone agrees.

The only thing that we can do with morality is determine what is right and wrong in Tolkien's world.

And what is morality in Middle Earth? Well, I suppose Eru is morality. But Tolkien also appears to have given every individual the ability to discern and choose without guidance in most situations. It seems that everyone, while different, was given the same basic moral compass in Middle Earth.

Does this reflect his view of the real world?