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Bêthberry · 10-30-2003, 01:07 PM

Hi there Saucepan,

My point was really to suggest that our current, contemporary concept of morality and immorality is heavily determined by our criminal codes. Many, many behaviours are now deemed 'criminal', to various degrees, which were never in the past subject to law enforcement per se. (The history of the regulation of alcohol consumption in the USA and in Europe is one example.) In fact, the USA has one of the highest rates of incarceration of any of the Western nations.

It might be interesting, as an aside, to look at these links on the history of policing. Many of our modern ideas of policing are still derived from Sir Robert Peel's ideas when he established the first London Police force c. 1829 (the 'Bobbies', named after him).

The descriptions of the social organization for Anglo Saxon England (prior to William the Conqueror's invasion and usurption of the English throne) are fascinating in terms of Tolkien's depiction of The Shire.

History of Policing

Tything and Hundreds, Reeves in Shires

It might be a bit mad to discuss a post modern philosopher like Foucault (for whom all knowledge is a social construct) alongside an author like Tolkien (who believed, of course, in absolute truth), but I thought it was a helpful way to suggest that our current conceptions might not reflect the historical accuracies which Tolkien suggests.

Crime and punishment, as you correctly note, have little to do with Tolkien's moral universe.

[ November 01, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

10-30-2003, 01:07 PM	#113
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Hi there Saucepan, My point was really to suggest that our current, contemporary concept of morality and immorality is heavily determined by our criminal codes. Many, many behaviours are now deemed 'criminal', to various degrees, which were never in the past subject to law enforcement per se. (The history of the regulation of alcohol consumption in the USA and in Europe is one example.) In fact, the USA has one of the highest rates of incarceration of any of the Western nations. It might be interesting, as an aside, to look at these links on the history of policing. Many of our modern ideas of policing are still derived from Sir Robert Peel's ideas when he established the first London Police force c. 1829 (the 'Bobbies', named after him). The descriptions of the social organization for Anglo Saxon England (prior to William the Conqueror's invasion and usurption of the English throne) are fascinating in terms of Tolkien's depiction of The Shire. History of Policing Tything and Hundreds, Reeves in Shires It might be a bit mad to discuss a post modern philosopher like Foucault (for whom all knowledge is a social construct) alongside an author like Tolkien (who believed, of course, in absolute truth), but I thought it was a helpful way to suggest that our current conceptions might not reflect the historical accuracies which Tolkien suggests. Crime and punishment, as you correctly note, have little to do with Tolkien's moral universe. [ November 01, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ] __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.