[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs Iarhen!

Im sorry, but I have to disagree with you in several points:

LIkewise. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

1. I can not tell whos the greatest elf tribe. Vanyer where the greates in arts. Noldor in crafts, etc. But you can not say that the Noldor were not as good as the Vanyar just because they followed the rules strictly. They loved and they felt more than the Vanyar did.

Well if you take spiritual obedience and lack of self-will/willfulness as cardinal virtues you can of course say the were 'as good' obviously better. JRRT as a knowledgable and practicing Catholic Christian obviously saw these a crucial qualities.

Your point about their differing specialties is well noted and true as far as it goes. But all qualities are not equal under the sun. Just as JRRT singles out Manwe as temporal and spiritual leader of the Valar [ and with him Varda] so does he also with the Vanyar. Why? because they are closest to the spiiritual ideal. Like it or not, they are the most 'enlightened' [literally as they chose to live closest to the light of Eru as reflected in Manwe and Varda] and least fallen of the Elves.

That's why they went to war. Morgoth had killed the High King of the Noldor. Morgoth had stolen their silmarils (very appreciated jewels after the darkening of Valinor). So? The Noldor, headless without thier King, went to war to avenge the death of their King and to recover what was theirs in the first place. If the Vanyar were so high in spiritual and intellectual terms, they would have sympathized with the Noldor and would have gone to ME with them to fight Morgoth.

Hmm, despite being told it was doomed to failure? despite the regents of God saying 'you are going about it the wrong way'?

Despite the fact that they followed another unrepentant murderer of kin to do it?

The Vanyar, responded with genuine love by not aiding the Noldor in their folly, as indeed Olwe says when asked for his fleet.
The Vanyar waited for the green light from the Valar and struck when the time was right.

No sooner, no later.

If they are so good, and so benevolent, they must have felt an urge to help their Noldor brothers in disgrace.

But guess what? They DIDN'T!!!! They preffered to stay in Valinor, with the Valar, and save themselves the discomfort.Instead of helping those that were the same kind as them (the noldorin elves) they preffered to stay with gods.And thats a treason that even men knew and hated: thats why the Riders of Rohan helped Gondor. Because they wanted to help their brothers in disgrave before it was too late.

Addressed above, but I will also add that JRRT clearly paints the Noldor as in the wrong [despite the great stories that are rightly predicted to flow there from] and as rebellious against rightful Authority, and as we see in the Silmarillion, they are wiped out to the Prince [Gil-galad excepted]! It is a simple case of bad Karma.

Who exactly are the Vanyar to side with as they have 2 sets of 'brothers ' in Aman?

The Teleri who were most fouly robbed and then killed? or the Noldor some of whom did the robbing and killing?

2. Vanyar came because the Valar ordered them to.

I have seen no evidence of that at all. It could be true but there is no evidence that anyone was forced into service.

Of course even among High-Elves [especially one's that were a] given a free ticket home, whether they died or not] b] had to live with each other for ages afterword; you would have 2 very good reasons to go.

They were the biggest part of the host of the Valar. But they DID NOT threw down Morgoth. It was the Valar who did it.

Who says they weer the biggest? We are told [ Valaquenta?] that the Eldar never knew the number of the Maia. You may be right but we do not know.

Your second point, does not seem to work anyway you use it. 'The Vanyar did not throw down Morgoth'.

true - that was not their job. They had already known this as it was told explicitly to the Noldor in the 'prophecy of the North' I believe. They slaughterd Orcs and maybe a Balrog or 2, and perhaps trolls [ if they existed at all in the first age [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]] and maybe a few land bound drakes. The Noldor didn't throw down Morgoth either [although Luthien the non-Noldo did for a few minutes!] and that was the Noldor's express intention! that was clearly Eonwe's job [Tulkas or any of the Valar did not seem to be needed for this one, as we read in HoM-E X that Morgoth had grown far weaker.

So the Noldor score no points on the Vanyar there either way. Neither overcame Morgoth unaided, but at least the Vanyar [ and the tithe of the Noldor that did not persisit in rebellion] where on the winning side of the fianl Battle.

For some unknown reason, NONE of the remaining Noldor [in M-E] are said to have fought in the War of Wrath. That would include Maedhros and Maglor.

hmm... lazy? too tired? not invited or welcomed? we do not know...

But no sooner is the War over than the last Sons of Feanor [and actually I have a soft spot for these 2 but Maedhros should have listened to his younger brother] are up to their old kinslaying tricks!

We do not learn if it was Vanyar or Noldor this time] but if it was Vanyar, they just earned the disitinction of being the only elves to kill other elves of ALL THREE KINDREDS!*

amazing! Surely that House is the greatest due to it's overwhelming sense of Pride, Might in arms!, desire for vengence on anyone who stands between them and 'their precious''things made by hands'.

NB-[deliberate conflation of differing but relevant quotes]


* assuming that the 2 elder sons actually were involved [ and 'successful'] in the fighting at the previous Kinslayings involving first Teleri, then Sindar and fianlly, Noldor, Sindar, mixed Elves and Edain. Maybe they just directed the assault, though to give maedhros a sad form of credit, I do not think he would send other Elves to do his 'Dirty Work'.

If the Vanyar had come, by themselves without no help from the Valar and facing the current disolation and destroying of the Noldor (who were slain), they would have faced the SAME disgrace the Noldor suffered.

Yes, thank you, you have perfectly made my point for me:

the Vanyar were not that stupid!

I would say that even greater, because they are not war people, they can not make their own weapons.

Actually while that may be true that they did not forge their own swords, again we do not know for sure if a few [or more] saw the War coming and prepared in a 'Noldorin' way.

Surely the Vanyar were not the only one's to write poetry? So could not a few of the more testosterone imbued Vanyar have rolled up their sleeves and spent a spare century learning Smith work?

We read in HoME X p. 164, that the Vanyar were the 'spear Elves', just as the Noldor were sword Elves [ made their own] and the Teleri were Axe Elves [ though it is the Sindar who learned from the Dwarves how to make their own, 'These at first the Naugrim smithied for them']. And The green Elves [teleri again] certainly made their own bows and arrows. And I would bet taught the Dwarves this particular bit of war/hunting craft!
But anyway, chances are that a sub-set of Vanyar, made their own spears, but maybe not.

I will end with another quote from the Later Quenta Silmarillion text from HoM-E X p.164

The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-Elves, ...the Holy Elves....

If Holiness and blessedness are to be desired above the wisdom and valour, the noldorin attributes from the same passage [ and I think they are - being qualities of the mature spirit as opposed to the above mentioned wisdom and valour] which I would classify as 'of the soul' and by that meaning as some others do, the intermediate 'body' between the spirit and the flesh.

Of course best to have both, but if you only have holiness, have you not in some essential measure won 'the pearl of great price'?

[ March 01, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]